Charming: Do they remember?

[diaglo]

I like the answer (raised here by Thanee and diaglo) that a spellcraft check is required.

If you are a low level wizard, charm person would often be too risky to use if the guard or official charmed were to later recognize that he was under magical influence. Instead of "charm person" it might better be named "make enemy". On the other hand, if the guard had to make a DC 21 spellcraft check... well, then it could be quite a useful little spell.

but the DC 21 is to recognize the spell fully.

to recognize that magic was cast in general is different.

 

[kjenks]

True, I can see where it makes it better for the PC, but what is the guard thinking. I let those people in, it must have been because they were so damn convincing . After the spell wears off they have to think about there actions.

In real life, people help their buddies do illegal things all the time.

If the guard doesn't have Spellcraft (it's Trained Only, remember), he has no chance to figure out what's going on. He might be suspicious, but he could never be sure.

 

[der_kluge]

Yea, but once the spell wears off, these people are no longer the guards "buddies", so how does he come to terms with that?

"Well, they were my good friends.... wait a minute! I don't even know those people!!"


As for me, I'm neutral in this. I'm just waiting for the best argument to be presented before I decide how I rule on this spell.

 

[diaglo]

Yea, but once the spell wears off, these people are no longer the guards "buddies", so how does he come to terms with that?

"Well, they were my good friends.... wait a minute! I don't even know those people!!"

exactly. the guard suddenly realizes he just can't be friends anymore with someone who would act like that.

still not necessarily aware it was magic.

 

[DonTadow]

In real life, people help their buddies do illegal things all the time.

If the guard doesn't have Spellcraft (it's Trained Only, remember), he has no chance to figure out what's going on. He might be suspicious, but he could never be sure.

Let's say this guard has an average intelligence (10) he's been a guard for 4 years. His duty is to his country. the guard knows he must check all identification and signal his superior before letting anyone in. The party charmed him and tells him that they are friends and that they are walking in to warn the king about something or another. He lets them past. a minute later he realizes this memory. He just let four people in without warning his supervisor.

In real life someone would know something is up. He disobeyed protocal and it's too convinent for him to say oh they were buddies I don't remember. He would not think that any way because he is no longer under the spells. He knows they were not friends. He can't say , hey maybe they were old friends becuse charm only effects the person's attitudes towards you for a LIMITED TIME. It doesn't change memories.

This is where my inteligence check comes in. Sense motive or will (disbelieve) may also work. Is the person smart enough to realize that something odd happened. He doesnt have to know the spell and what level the caster was and what type of spell it was. This is something this guard wouldn't know, you are correct. And Spellchecks would be to determine what spell was cast. But you don't have to be a wizard or sorceror to suspect something amist with your memories.

 

[Cheiromancer]

This is where my inteligence check comes in. Sense motive or will (disbelieve) may also work. Is the person smart enough to realize that something odd happened. He doesnt have to know the spell and what level the caster was and what type of spell it was. This is something this guard wouldn't know, you are correct. And Spellchecks would be to determine what spell was cast. But you don't have to be a wizard or sorceror to suspect something amist with your memories.

What would be the DC for these checks? Let it be fairly high, lest "charm person" be "create enemy" misnamed.

 

[Nareau]

Charm Person
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]

Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1

Components: V, S

IMC, if you can see or hear someone casting a spell, and you've ever encountered/heard of spellcasting, chances are real good you recognize what they're doing. No spellcraft check necessary to notice someone saying strange phrases and waving their hands in the air.

So, if I can see and hear you cast Charm Person on me, I know you're casting a spell. But it doesn't matter, because you're my friend! But once it's worn off, I remember everything that happened (including you casting a spell, and me suddenly acting strangely.) I probably don't know it's Charm Person, per se. But if I've ever heard of mind-control magic, I'm going to be somewhere between suspicious and furious.

Spider

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm going to be somewhere between suspicious and furious.

That's my reason for referring to the spell as "create enemy." And I repeat; what skill and what DC to determine if the NPC is "somewhere between suspicious and furious"?

If the rules do not specify the skill and DC, what are the closest rules that can be extrapolated to cover the situation?

 

[DonTadow]

What would be the DC for these checks? Let it be fairly high, lest "charm person" be "create enemy" misnamed.

the Dc isbased on the situation. It's always 10 plus modifiers. I keep modifiers in range of 2. -2 if the person is pretty familiar with tactics. +2 if the person is not as familiar. The dc's may be lower or higher depending on other factors such as if the pcs get caught by other guards, if the pcs are already in a hostile enviroment and the enemy knows of there existenet, if the pcs are in a friendly place, if the pc's is family with the charmee ect.

For that action in my example I'd put the dc at 8. The guy has been doing this job way too long and knows that magic exists in this world. He's pretty seasoned.

However, if the pc's did some scoutining they'd know that a rookie is on duty for two hours. He's a newbie so his DC would be 12 (+2 for being new). He's probably second thinking himself at times without charm spells. The Pc's can do a bit more gathering information about time and find out that the guard plays cards at the inn three times a week. The familiarity loses the rookie guard 2 more points making the dc 6. This also lets me add in factors if my pc's pull off some great rpg'n during the charm.

 

[diaglo]

That's my reason for referring to the spell as "create enemy." And I repeat; what skill and what DC to determine if the NPC is "somewhere between suspicious and furious"?

If the rules do not specify the skill and DC, what are the closest rules that can be extrapolated to cover the situation?

i think it relies on attitude.

charmed = friendly

but if the guard suspects you are threatening... he gains +5 to save vs. charm when cast.

also look at fascinate and suggestion.. things that work on a similar mechanic.