Charming: Do they remember?

[DonTadow]

The skills Knowledge(arcana), Profession(guard) seem to fit here.

If magic is prevalent the DC for knowing about spellcasting would probably be under 10. This means that an untrained knowledge(arcana) check would work.

If being a guard is this NPCs "profession" then it'd probably be easier to DC. I'd give the NPC a bonus to the profession check equal to the number of levels the NPC has been a guard.

Untrained Knowledge Check = Intelligence Check Perhaps Adding knowledge and proffession checks may be better than increasing and decreasing the dc.

 

[Storyteller01]

Ah yes, THIS debate again.
For the record, Spellcraft is for (among other things) IDENTIFYING spells, not recognizing that someone is casting one.

Isn't Spellcraft used during a counterspell? You have to know that the caster IS casting, and ID the spell in mid-cast.

Seems almost identical, identifing a spell as it is cast (or a ruse, if a con-man were using his bluff skills).

 

[Storyteller01]

There's an example of a Charm spell being cast in MGP's Encyclopedia Arcana "Enchantment". In the example (it was a story to add flavor, but it helps regardless), a mage casts a silent, still charm on a waitress, then pretended to not have enough money to pay.

Her response had been "you old charmer. I'll pay if you agree to spend my break with me."

Nothing too unusual about the above situation, except for the waitress accepting an excuse a little too readily (something ALL of us have done at one time or another).

After reading this example, I house ruled the spell. If you cultivate it properly, the spell could become a real friendship, or at least a fond memory. If you have the subject do things contrary to their character a little too often, you'll either make an enemy or send them into therapy.

Helps me get my players role playing, instead of relying on die rolls.

 

[Kemrain]

Charm spells are kinda funny. They aren't well defined in the rules for a reason. Every time you cast, the spell is different. How it will affect your target depends on the target, the caster, and how the target is treated.

Let's say I'm trying to get information about a local lord's security forces. I meet with the captain of the guard in a pub and charm him with a Stilled Silent Charm Person. (Stilled and Silent to keep the "He saw you cast" arguments away.) We get to talking, and I buy him a few drinks. He gives me the information I'm looking for because I convince him to brag about how no one's ever gotten past him, and I'm a damn nice guy whom he feels he can trust. So we part ways at the end of the evening, and eventually the spell wears off.

Now, I was very nice to the guard captain, and treated him like a friend. I bought him drinks, listened to him complain, and agreed with him that he should get better pay. I did everything a friend should do after I charmed him. How should he feel about me afterwards? The only camp I've seen so far in this thread is the "He decides he was acting oddly and gets suspicious" line of reasoning. But people will go a long way to rationalize things.

I'm of a mind that the next time I see this guy, he might be glad to see me, clap me on the shoulder, and offer to buy me a drink. Don't tell me that you've never met someone whom you were drawn to and immediately wanted to impress. Someone whom you wanted to like you. I can see charm person being like that.

Let's say that the captain introduced me to a few of his buddies over the course of the night. These guys aren't charmed. I play friendly and let their respect for the captain carry some weight. By the end of the night, I might not be friends with them, but they'll probably remember my name and nod to me when I pass them by.

The charm spell wearing off does not change the memories of the victim. They don't know why they felt the way they did, but they'll remember feeling that way. If you treated them well, they should recall you in a favorable light. You were this person who came into their life and struck them as so charming (heh) that they immediately felt that they could trust you. They wanted to impress you- wanted you to like them. If you did, they'll remember that, and probably remember you favorably.

My last example: say you had a way to charm a woman for years at a time. She was charmed and acted like she was in love with you. While, when this eventually wears off she might see your flaws much more clearly, if you two are compatable and she was treated well (and never finds out about the charm) who's to say she should immediately stop loving you?

I don't think charm spells leave a lasting effect after they expire, but I do think that the social interaction that takes place while charmed does. This shouldn't be discounted so easily.

- Kemrain the Charming.

 

[hazmat]

DonTadow: Knowledge skills are trained only except for things that would be considered common knowledge. The SRD defines things that are common knowledge to have a DC of 10 or less.

Whether Knowledge about what spellcasting is common is campaign dependant. Just how common would be a variance in the DC.

Also, a professional (Profession skill) would knows things relevant to their job. The better you are at your job the more you know.

 

[DonTadow]

Charm spells are kinda funny. They aren't well defined in the rules for a reason. Every time you cast, the spell is different. How it will affect your target depends on the target, the caster, and how the target is treated.

Let's say I'm trying to get information about a local lord's security forces. I meet with the captain of the guard in a pub and charm him with a Stilled Silent Charm Person. (Stilled and Silent to keep the "He saw you cast" arguments away.) We get to talking, and I buy him a few drinks. He gives me the information I'm looking for because I convince him to brag about how no one's ever gotten past him, and I'm a damn nice guy whom he feels he can trust. So we part ways at the end of the evening, and eventually the spell wears off.

Now, I was very nice to the guard captain, and treated him like a friend. I bought him drinks, listened to him complain, and agreed with him that he should get better pay. I did everything a friend should do after I charmed him. How should he feel about me afterwards? The only camp I've seen so far in this thread is the "He decides he was acting oddly and gets suspicious" line of reasoning. But people will go a long way to rationalize things.

I'm of a mind that the next time I see this guy, he might be glad to see me, clap me on the shoulder, and offer to buy me a drink. Don't tell me that you've never met someone whom you were drawn to and immediately wanted to impress. Someone whom you wanted to like you. I can see charm person being like that.

Let's say that the captain introduced me to a few of his buddies over the course of the night. These guys aren't charmed. I play friendly and let their respect for the captain carry some weight. By the end of the night, I might not be friends with them, but they'll probably remember my name and nod to me when I pass them by.

The charm spell wearing off does not change the memories of the victim. They don't know why they felt the way they did, but they'll remember feeling that way. If you treated them well, they should recall you in a favorable light. You were this person who came into their life and struck them as so charming (heh) that they immediately felt that they could trust you. They wanted to impress you- wanted you to like them. If you did, they'll remember that, and probably remember you favorably.

My last example: say you had a way to charm a woman for years at a time. She was charmed and acted like she was in love with you. While, when this eventually wears off she might see your flaws much more clearly, if you two are compatable and she was treated well (and never finds out about the charm) who's to say she should immediately stop loving you?

I don't think charm spells leave a lasting effect after they expire, but I do think that the social interaction that takes place while charmed does. This shouldn't be discounted so easily.

- Kemrain the Charming.

This is a great arguement and a good example of combining great role playing with mechanics in d and d. Perhaps it should be said that identifying a charm spell after the fact depends on the magic in your campaign, the role playing after the charm and the intelligence of the individual about his surroundings.

 

[ARandomGod]

True, I can see where it makes it better for the PC, but what is the guard thinking. I let those people in, it must have been because they were so damn convincing . After the spell wears off they have to think about there actions. If the actions are minor "such as opening a gate" then i'd make a high intelligence check. It wasn't that out of the ordinary. But if the offiense was " run from the guardhouse you have sworn to protect" I"d have to take a step back and offer a lower dc after the spell's duration.

Wouldn't also depend on how magical your world is?

Yea.

I make it a simple 'how oddly did the spell make the target act' check. If the target was completely acting differently and LIKING it, he probably suspects something. If he was just ... oddly nice, then he might not suspect it. If you used charm and a good diplomacy role, attempted to at least give the target some excuses for his behavior... well, he might not suspect anything at all.

 

[jokamachi]

Remember that time your wife told you not to eat the last of the breadsticks, but you did anyway? That was my charm spell, mwuahahaha! Did you realize it? No.

good one

 

[jokamachi]

I knew a girl once who had me quite charmed. Was it magic or just her?

Unless you have Spellcraft, you'd never know. But you might always wonder.

-- Ken Jenks

I'm not sure they know either.

 

[kanithardm]

Sense Motive would work well for other people to noticee they were charmed. No idea what DC though.