Cheating - who cares?

[painandgreed]

So, confronting the cheating player who's enriching themselves at the expense of others is...bad?

A DM does confront them when they asked for confirmation. Taking beyond that into a long arguement between DM and player while the rest of the players have time to get up leave to get something to drink and nachos at the corner store, talk to some friends they met along the way, and still arrive back in time to hear the end of an arguement that the DM is wrong about as often as he is right, is bad. Our experiences shape how we play the game and I've sat through enough wasted time listening to such things that I have sworn never to be that DM*. I've asked people if they really rolled what they said they did and even told them that I'm not sure I believe them, but unless you're going to kick them out of the game right then and there, there is no good in taking it any farther.

In the case of a player having what they say they do, it is quite possible that in about three mintues real time, it is decided to go into a cave, ride a day out, camp the night, get up, eat and prepare, and then enter the cave which take about 24 hours game time. I like being anal about my list of equipment more than most, but I can't erase and decide what to take and where everything is without seriously delaying the game. So what if a player's rope is still listed as being back on his horse. If he says he brought it when you asked him, especially if it likely when spending the previous night packing and thinking about what to bring that he would have decided to bring it, then you might as well assume he has it. If the DM really want to get into an arguement about it that will most likely end up retconning the last hour of play so everybody can spend another half an hour modifying their character sheets before starting over so said DM can keep some guy who carries too much in back pack in line, it's just not worth it.

*Which is sort fo surprising since the person I'm thinking of is who I generally think of as the best DM I ever had. He could tell a story, draw a map, and describe the setting better than anybody I know, but I learned as much what not to do as well as what to do from his confrontations with players, DM fiats, and habit of scrapping one campaign and starting over because he liked low level.

 

[Jim Hague]

A DM does confront them when they asked for confirmation. Taking beyond that into a long arguement between DM and player while the rest of the players have time to get up leave to get something to drink and nachos at the corner store, talk to some friends they met along the way, and still arrive back in time to hear the end of an arguement that the DM is wrong about as often as he is right, is bad. Our experiences shape how we play the game and I've sat through enough wasted time listening to such things that I have sworn never to be that DM*. I've asked people if they really rolled what they said they did and even told them that I'm not sure I believe them, but unless you're going to kick them out of the game right then and there, there is no good in taking it any farther.

In the case of a player having what they say they do, it is quite possible that in about three mintues real time, it is decided to go into a cave, ride a day out, camp the night, get up, eat and prepare, and then enter the cave which take about 24 hours game time. I like being anal about my list of equipment more than most, but I can't erase and decide what to take and where everything is without seriously delaying the game. So what if a player's rope is still listed as being back on his horse. If he says he brought it when you asked him, especially if it likely when spending the previous night packing and thinking about what to bring that he would have decided to bring it, then you might as well assume he has it. If the DM really want to get into an arguement about it that will most likely end up retconning the last hour of play so everybody can spend another half an hour modifying their character sheets before starting over so said DM can keep some guy who carries too much in back pack in line, it's just not worth it.

*Which is sort fo surprising since the person I'm thinking of is who I generally think of as the best DM I ever had. He could tell a story, draw a map, and describe the setting better than anybody I know, but I learned as much what not to do as well as what to do from his confrontations with players, DM fiats, and habit of scrapping one campaign and starting over because he liked low level.

I guess I'm in the 'kick them out if they can't be honest and live with the consequences' camp, then. I've got no time to deal with people who lack respect for me, my game and most importantly the other players. Obviously, you feel differently. I'm also of a mind that you can confront someone instead of being passive or passive-aggressive, do so in an assertive (but not rude) manner, and have things come out alright. If you're gaming with friends, I think it's a better approach than pointing at the door and yelling...or simply letting it slide. IME, if someone cheats and doesn't get called on it, the cheating becomes worse. YMMV.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be made here between "friend" and "aquaintance?"

 

[fusangite]

Perhaps a distinction needs to be made here between "friend" and "aquaintance?"

I think you have hit the nail right on the head here. I just can't have long-term gaming acquaintances, I have discovered. Even after moving to a new city and having to fill a gaming group with strangers, it took about 7 months for people to become friends or for those who didn't to drift away.

When I was younger, I had a friend who cheated. We would kid him about it, which caused him to feel so guilty that although he didn't stop cheating, he began changing rolls into 1s as or more often than he turned them into 20s. He still scored more criticals than he statistically should have but he was also losing his action and dropping his weapon all the time. He was a special case in that he was such a great guy, such an effective role player and such a great friend that we would tolerate his propensity for this kind of weirdness.

I ended up betraying him horribly in real life and we stopped gaming together so I never had the pleasure to see what a more mature, non-cheating version of him would have been like.

The point of my rambling story is this: if a friendship doesn't include the ability to confront someone about them behaving in a way that makes you feel bad, it's not much of a friendship. If your friendships are premised on never telling your friend when he's getting on your nerves, your relationship lacks the intimacy necessary to qualify as a friendship. We chose to confront our friend about his cheating by teasing him in a humorous way -- that's just one example of the ways you can confront a friend and still get your point across without seeming like a dictatorial killjoy.

In the end, I'm pleased to say that my friendship with this individual is gradually healing despite me having done something far worse to him than cheating at his game. If think you've got a friendship so brittle and sensitive that a single confrontation over a socially minor issue will end it, you don't really have a friendship.

 

[iwatt]

The point of my rambling story is this: if a friendship doesn't include the ability to confront someone about them behaving in a way that makes you feel bad, it's not much of a friendship.

I underlined something you said. I agree with your assesment of what a friendship should entail. Just so that you guys can understand me: I don't feel bad when someone else cheats. I don't care. It's a flaw. I have plenty of them myself, and probably worse than casual cheating in a non-competitive game. If my friend's can tolerate my anger issues and my sarcastic sense of humour, I can accept self-replicating healing potions and hitpoint tracking discrepancies. Now If I'm ever confronted with these extreme cheaters you people seem to have encounterered, it will probably lead me to confronting them. But these pathological cheaters seem so alien to me I'll probably never face them, since I only game with friends, and someone that wierd will probably not make it into my circle.

And finally (and this is aimed at everybody who says it), can people stop saying: Maybe you should play another game For whatever reason in the world, I've decided to play D&D. Leave it at that.

 

[painandgreed]

I guess I'm in the 'kick them out if they can't be honest and live with the consequences' camp, then. I've got no time to deal with people who lack respect for me, my game and most importantly the other players. Obviously, you feel differently.

And such is your prerogative, and heaven forbid that anybody ever confuse me for LG. I'd rather play with people who are good friends outside of the game that are good role players who may fudge a few die rolls here and there (of which I can only think of one or two examples in my gaming history) than technical gamers that I wouldn't associate outside of the game who never would think of breaking the rules. Notice, that I never said not to confront them, but once you confront them and they deny it, you're just looking at an endless back and forth arguement to keep it up. Easier to right things as DMs can by either cheating back or changing the methods of gaming, eg having all die roles done in a box in plain view.

Another method I like to use as DM is claiming there is no such thing as OOC knowledge: if you know it, your character knows it. Execution involves lots of taking players aside to play things by themselves outside of earshot of other players, but actually having players not know what is going on with the other players adds to excitement and frees the players to do as they please. I thought players would not like the breaks in the game but everybody seems ok with it so long as they get their chance to talk to the DM outside, and it gives them a chance to chat and get it out of their system so whe we return, it's back to the game without interuptions. Chatting is a major problem when all players are friends. My Monday night games are almost "boys night out" and we spend about 25-50% of the time talking about RL stuff rather than the game.

Edited to add:
Notie also that I didn't say I didn't care. I care, but am willing to overlook it in certain situations.

 

[jasper]

Swrushing…. IMX dead PCs teach the players... to not care about their PCs…. Okay you take your pcs to seriously. Sometimes the dice are against you and the monster wins. Now maybe the other pcs will kill the monster before it loots your body. And maybe not. To put simply care for your pcs just don’t fall in love with them.

It one minor cheat to pull your swing so the paladin can get his glory. It is a game stopper when …How would "hey, i have one healing potion left" when i didn't….
Don’t go any farther. So you telling me you as player can now decide when pull magic items out the air just so a pc can live and jasper will not whine over knuckles the sixth?


What if, like a great many dead PCs (arguably the vast majority) in DND it happened mostly not by plan and decision and deliberation of good story… Sorry we have to disagree here. If I want a story I go to the book store.

… but because the Gm was overmatching the encounter (again), ….. Yes this happens because the DM fault or because the player did not get hint and pinched Red Sonja on the rear and was surprise she threw him off the boat. Or the player got stupid and slapped the Grandma of the King. Basically pcs do not carry “I am the star” immunity get out of death free cards.

….the die rolls went bad, etc….. we have dice for the reason. Sometimes they up and sometimes they down. Some times the monster wins.

and it was just going to be another pointless dead PC thing?... Oh my pc dead is never point less. Green slime, going thru just another door, didn’t save and died spell.
Correct me if I wrong. You - D&D = story and game. Game play must advance the story. Me - D&D = game. Story is what happen in the game good or bad.