Cheating - who cares?

[Squire James]

I do not tolerate cheating. Not even that paladin cheating to let the ranger have the kill. He thinks it's most "in character" to try his best to kill the monster, then he'd better be prepared to deal with the possibility that he kills the monster. That's cheating for the sake of cheating... the paladin could have delayed his action until after the ranger, or even said "I deliberately miss so the ranger won't think I was giving him the kill" (followed by a paladin Bluff vs. ranger Sense Motive check). Or is it's the PLAYER he wants to bluff, he can slip a note to the DM before the attack. At worst, other players will laugh and comment that it's usually the party thief who slips notes to the DM...

It is my opinion that most proponents of "minor cheating" let their philosophy expand to the "real world" as well, but my opinion might be wrong. I'm sure the Celestial Judge of Pillow Tag Removal* judges such things, not me.

* Clarification That Ruins the Joke - Pillow manufacturers put a tag on their pillows noting that it is unlawful to remove the tag. Some neglect to include the final phrase "except by the consumer," so some might infer that removal of the tag is some sort of crime (or at least a form of "minor cheating"). I envision God Almighty musing on his Mighty Throne in Heaven, "But you've removed three pillow tags and returned seventeen library books overdue, not to mention 1,796 separate instances of jaywalking, so..."

 

[ThirdWizard]

For anyone advocating cheating:

If the Table Rules document had a rule to forbid cheating, would that have any bearing on whether or not you were to cheat for any reason (even "good" ones)?

If there was an applicable punishment in the Table Rules for anyone caught cheating, would that have any bearing on whether or not you were to cheat for any reason? (Possilbe punishments include XP penalties, cumulative penalties to rolls, etc.)

If you were caught cheating, even to help another player in the situations you described, and were submitted to said punishment in the Table Rules, would you accept it without question?

 

[fusangite]

For those advocating cheating to achieve some narrative objective, I guess I have my standard question: why are you choosing D&D as your system? There are all kinds of game systems that hand out second chances, all kinds of game systems where outcomes can be changed for dramatic effect, within their rules. Why not play one of those games rather than a crunch-heavy game like D&D. Or, if you're committed to playing D&D, publish some house rules laying out how many free re-rolls the players or GM get per session. Covertly covering dice seems like the most immature way to solve the problems or achieve the objectives you want to address.

 

[James Heard]

Everyone is very clear that the original question has nothing to do with advocation but toleration, right? And that there exists a very wide gulf between advocation and toleration?

 

[fusangite]

Everyone is very clear that the original question has nothing to do with advocation but toleration, right? And that there exists a very wide gulf between advocation and toleration?

Agreed. Sometimes it is better, socially, to handle a small amount of cheating rather than provoking an unnecessary confrontation with an otherwise good player. But, as the thread has progressed, some people have begun advocating cheating in addition to advocating its toleration.

 

[James Heard]

Yeah, I just wanted to make certain that everyone stayed on course that a lot of us that are saying "don't care" aren't saying "go ahead, cheat!" but something more akin to "meh, if you must cheat don't make it obvious enough that I have to reach over there and smack you." Another thing my players have had a hissy fit over: going after character sheet cheaters by staging "pc audit days". Even when it's an innocent mistake no one likes having everyone find out that you did the math on your point buy wrong and that your tank should have died several times several adventures ago, again reminding me that people like the idea that they occasionally screw up in a way that appears to be cheating at least as much as they do finding out Billy's been calling everything over 13 a twenty for six sessions.

People who cheat outrageously don't tend to last very much in the first place IME, but GMs who call cheaters out often or outrageously don't seem to last very long either. As in most cases, I think the moderate case for allowing the benefit of the doubt and/or that sometimes people get funky and emotionally invested in things that aren't ultimately all that important is best. In most games I think the game is more important than the dice and the people are more important than the game, and while extreme cases can ruin any one of those things I just think most of the time most people would be better served by letting minor things slide and re-examining the emphasis when the game or dice seem more important the people is often warranted.

And again, if I don't know the people I'm gaming with, the equation changes - and no one wants to really be around me while I'm actually gambling either.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Everyone is very clear that the original question has nothing to do with advocation but toleration, right? And that there exists a very wide gulf between advocation and toleration?

I am also aware of this, but the thread has evolved beyond the original question. I am in agreement with fusangite regarding the apparent advocation of cheating by some of the posts. I realize that it isn't major cheating that is being advocated, but I don't think that it is right to advocate even minor cheating.

EDIT: I just noticed your reply, and I also agree that for the most part it is toleration that is being expressed, not promotion. There are some posts that appear to go beyond toleration.

 

[Ds Da Man]

I don't think anyone is saying that cheating is good, just that some fudging so that the poor shlump sitting in the old papasan chair who always rolls bad, has some fun isn't evil. Some do feel the need to cheat more then others, but in the long run I'm not going to ruin a night with the guys calling out my buddy on cheating. If he is having fun, and the rest of the group is having fun, so be it. If he starts to become such a distraction that anyone is upset, I would say something, albeit, tactfully, with just the cheater and I. Other then that, having fun is all I want out of RPGs. I am not there to be the moral authority. It is just a PnP, RPG game, not Texas Hold 'em with $10 riding on it.

 

[Vartan]

Funny you should mention...in my last D&D session I found out that I was a cheater

I'm totally new to the 3.5 rules system and, for some reason that I can't explain, I was under the impression that my rogue had a +7 to his missle attacks (as opposed to a +5). Rest assured, this was pure confusion on my part...but at one point (towards the climax of the first leg of the adventure) another player exclaimed "How do you have a +7 with your crossbow?!?" Suffice to say I was very embarassed...I'm a veteran player and DM (2nd edition) and I pride myself on carrying myself as a pro at the gaming table. That +7 had been a big asset to the whole group through a few encounters which, as a regular DM, made me think that I had just blown the whole session for all involved from a game balance standpoint. The other players didn't say anything, but I could tell they either regarded me as a rookie or (worse) a cheater.

Bottom line: if you want to be a good player then you should know the rules, know your character, etc. The concept of cheating shouldn't even be an option for a good player, because it screws the integrity of the game.

 

[Piratecat]

So, I've only had one player who consistently cheated.

It came up the first time when another player told me quietly that this person had been fudging dice rolls. The guy would idly roll his d20 out of turn. When it reached a good number, he'd leave it - and when I called for a roll, he'd look at it and say "I got a 17!" I spoke with him privately, he admitted it, and I let him know I never wanted him to do it again.

He did, of course. He was just more subtle about it, using dice that were hard to read. I eventually had to ask him to change dice.

Worse, I finally figured out that he had been adding money to his character sheet every game session... just because he felt his character was entitled to it "because he was of noble birth." I lost it and did a fair bit of hollering.

As the player himself gradually became more erratic (disrupted games, long-term character turned evil, new character got boring to him very quickly) I eventually asked him to step out of the game. In retrospect I wish I had done so earlier when it became clear that the cheating wasn't going to stop. I like the guy as a person, but he was tough to game with.

I was in another campaign with him as well, where the cheating was totally egregious and the DM didn't want to confront him. It made everyone else in the game angry. On days when this player couldn't make it, we'd play his character; the DM would ask for an initiative roll, and the person playing the PC would say "I rolled a 3, so I go on 21." Sigh.

I don't think I'd ever boot a player for cheating once. I'd talk to them, though, and make it clear that it wasn't okay in my game. I might put systems in place (a dice cup, only roll when watched, etc.) that made cheating harder. If I caught someone a second time, I probably would ask them to leave the game.

What's interesting is that my attitude has changed from back in high school when I first began playing D&D. I don't remember ever cheating in a game, but yeah, I'm sure all those 1e characters of mine sure did end up with ability scores of 15-18 naturally. . . But I didn't cheat, see; I wouldn't artificially change numbers. I WOULD re-roll a character 20 times or more until I got the scores I wanted.