Cheating - who cares?

[swrushing]

If a friend steals from you, is that also okay because you can't handle the conflict of confronting him?

or what if the friend is murdering people in front of you?
or what if the friend is committing genocide against an entire race of beings?
or what if he is doing any number of other things which aren't "minor cheating in RPG with friends"?

Shouldn't everyone consider all possible affronts interchangeable for this discussion?

Really?

 

[Pseudonym]

Nevermind

 

[Frozen DM]

Now, above someone mentions how cheating is bad when it is done to steal or hog the limelight. Well, i would suggest that someone stealing or hogging the limelight is just as bad when its done legally. Its not "how you stole the limelight" but that you did. Certainly cheating can be used to accomplish goals that are detrimental to the game play for everyone, but legal means can do the same. Whether its stealing the limelight, undermining the other players actions, or whatever other "messes with other players" goals... its not the how but the what that is the problem. if the problem occurs, deal with the problem, not the "how".

I will concede this point. It is true that the core problem is that the player seems to feel a need to be demonstratably better than the other players. The cheating is simply making the problem worse.

When we game every player is hoping to have their moment to shine in the game, whether it is the player who loves to role-play and gets to really interact with the NPC's for the story's betterment, or the combat lover who manages to tweak his dwarven fighter into an insane killing machine.

Where the cheating complicates the issue is, the other players start to feel they have no control over the way their character can shine. I've had players simply throw their hands up in frustration saying "what's the point, why not just let HIM make the roll". Creating a fun, interesting, or even powerful character within the framework of the rules is one thing. But when the only recourse a player has, in order to be the best, is to fudge and cheat on their dice rolls, it shows a level of deceitfulness and selfishness that impedes the game.

Here cheating is a symptom of a larger problem, but I think eliminating this symptom at least leads down a path that will resolve this issue in the end.

 

[Mort]

I care. When one player cheats on a consistant basis it is a huge damper to the other players.

Some people for instance might feel differently about a player fudging his own dice rolls if the roll was to stabilize another PC at the last minute (preventing the other's PC death) rather than it being done to slam the dragon at the last minute.

not everyone of course.

As I have said before, IMo fudging dice can be considered rules-lite action points.

So you'd be ok with having no action points and the player next to you having unlimited action points?

 

[Jim Hague]

Since you are getting hung up on lying to friends, maybe that can serve to show the differences in a way to get across the issue.

Ok, first - you need to lay off the antagonistic tone. Obviously, this is a hot button issue with some people, but I see no reason to provoke a flamewar.

practically everyone i ever met lies to their friends. most of these would be called "little white lies" and sometimes even "lies of omission" but they are lies and frankly, most social norms are not based on total vrutal honesty. Thats a nice theory, the never lie to friends, often expressed when kids are looking for philosophical black/white worlds, but whether it comes down to politeness or courtesy or any number of decent reasons to not be totally truthful with people you like at all times, it happens.

That everyone does it doesn't make it any more acceptable. And since we're speaking of distinctions - cheating is not social lubricant. It's one person violating social contract for their own benefit. Please don't try to distort what we're actually speaking of in order to support your already very shaky and antagonistic stance.

If you want to equate "lies" with "cheating" in some sense, the impression I got was he was aksing about "little white cheating" not "bald face benefit me to hurt you" cheating.

There seems to be some confusion on that point by the OP. I'm waiting for further clarification on his part.

Now, above someone mentions how cheating is bad when it is done to steal or hog the limelight. Well, i would suggest that someone stealing or hogging the limelight is just as bad when its done legally. Its not "how you stole the limelight" but that you did. Certainly cheating can be used to accomplish goals that are detrimental to the game play for everyone, but legal means can do the same. Whether its stealing the limelight, undermining the other players actions, or whatever other "messes with other players" goals... its not the how but the what that is the problem. if the problem occurs, deal with the problem, not the "how".

Indeed - and cheating compounds the above problems by adding another layer of mistrust and deception to what're already going to be serious problems for any game group. So you're compounding being a jerk with being a cheating jerk.

Some people for instance might feel differently about a player fudging his own dice rolls if the roll was to stabilize another PC at the last minute (preventing the other's PC death) rather than it being done to slam the dragon at the last minute.

not everyone of course.

As I have said before, IMo fudging dice can be considered rules-lite action points.

Please note that my argument hinges on the damage that cheating can do - what if preventing that death simply leads the hypnothetical player whose character was injured to engage in the same actions that landed him in hot water in the first place? As much as spotlight hogging, someone acting stupidly or out of character in a game can be as damaging as cheating, if not moreso.

It's a pretty simple principle - honesty and deserved trust avoids the issue entirely. Surely you're not advocating the position of dishonesty and cheating being preferrable to communication and honesty, are you?

 

[National Acrobat]

We Care

All dice rolls, including those of the GM's, are done out in the open.

'Nuff said.

 

[Xath]

It's not as much fun with cheating. When I was little, I used to cheat at games alot, because that was the only way I could win. But as I grew older, I realized that cheating took the challenge out of games, and they weren't really enjoyable to play.

Sometimes our GM will "cheat" in a critical situatio. When someone's about to die and they roll poorly, they might just happen to have to reroll because the GM didn't see the number, or it hit a book, or something.

But in normal situations, if you feel that you sometimes need to reroll, that's what the feat Dark One's Own Luck is for.

 

[swrushing]

So you'd be ok with having no action points and the player next to you having unlimited action points?

If he only uses them once in a while we the party really needs it, as often to help others as himself? Sure.

if he only uses them to upstage other PCs and steal their spotlight moments, I would have a problem if we both had 5 per session.

its not the HOW he does X but the WHAT is he doing.

 

[Nomad4life]

Once every blue moon, I’ll have a player randomly want something between adventures really badly, like some specific magic item. As long as such a request wouldn’t interfere with the plot, and everyone else was cool with it, (and the player can explain in-game how they came to suddenly possess this item, etc...) I would sometimes go ahead and grant this request to keep the game moving. After all, combat was never a major part of my campaigns anyway, and we’re all there to have fun.

In contrast to this seemingly lax style of GMing, I have flat-out told other players that they would be better off looking for another group to play with, when I caught them trying to cheat or alter the game in some way behind my back.

I’m not sure what the difference is, really, but one case seems like “just having a good time” and the other seems like “dishonest treachery.” Perhaps this distinction is unfair, but it’s there in my mind nonetheless.

I banned rolling in secret from all my games back in AD&D2E- Any roll that eveyone else can't see is an automatic failure. This solves the potential problem of players lying about die results. Not that I would expect any of them would, but at least the temptation to do so isn't there.

In any case, ever since True20 became our primary gaming system, I don’t think anyone has made any such “fudging” requests at all. I’m not really sure why- Perhaps because, as someone else mentioned, True20 already has a “built-in-cheat-feature” the players can use to alter things in their favor.

 

[Lhorgrim]

I voted "Care".

I understand the points that some posters are making about minor cheating not being the end of the world to them or their groups, but cheating just irks me.

When I DM we all roll on the table so everyone can see. Die fudging is pretty difficult to pull off in that sitiuation. In a past game(2E) we had a player that always rolled behind a book, or used some other object to hide his roll. He would snatch his die up before anyone could look at it, and his PCs were always very successful. The guy didn't have much of a poker face. When he would fudge a dice roll his ears would turn bright red. Really. It was like a warning beacon. When he didn't fudge his roll, he would leave the die where it had stopped and spread his arms in a kind of "behold!" gesture.

He was a nice guy, but he just wasn't very trust inspiring. After we started "rolling in the open" he played for a few more games, and then just drifted away.