Cheating - who cares?

[Frozen DM]

So far I think we're all talking about similar but, at the same time, vastly different topics:

1) Is it ok to tolerate minor amounts of cheating amongst friends? This implies the cheating has no significant impact on the game, nor does it occur in a way that would (beyond the act of cheating itself) upset another player.

2) Cheating for selfish, personal reasons whereby the player in question is going out of their way to either be the centre of attention, gain at the disadvantage to others, or to purposefully impact the game in a negative way.

3) Players who cheat exclusively for the benefit of the group. This implies they will actually fudge dice results to either give their characters penalties (in order to allow another player to succeed) or in a way that would positively benefit the game/group.

The way I see it, I can tolerate #1 as long as it never escalates to #2. Players who engage in #2 should be dealt with in some way (either by convincing them to stop cheating or, at the extreme, booting them from the game). And while it seems that the motivation for cheating seems to be in question, I would argue that the motivation is irrelevant, it's the perceived result and outcome that really matters. A player may cheat for the best intentions, but if that cheating causes problems in the group, it should be stopped.

Finally, I'm not convinced that #3 occurs as often as some posters claim, I can see it as being justified in certain circumstances. However, having said that, in the third case I, as a DM, would expect the player in question to let me know what they are doing, out of respect for the game and group.

The rules of most (if not all RPGs) allow the DM to fudge results in order to provide a more enjoyable experience. This is part of the game, and as such, follows the expected rules. However, I don't believe the player's (within the bounds of the social contract of the game) should be taking that responsibility themselves without informing the DM.

 

[Frozen DM]

But he still chose to take the hit, knowing the possible/likely outcome. And if he did so specifically in the hopes of a negative impact on the other player, the fact that the dice favored him i don't really see as mitigating the action. Or, to put it another way, if he specifically tries to do something to distress another player, and fails because of the dice, does that mean its ok that he was specifically trying to distress the other player?

True, in this case the player is being rude no matter what. However, I still feel there is a fundamental difference between being an uncooperative player who hogs the limelight in a game, and one who does so AND cheats in order to accomplish it. To use an arguably poor example: stealing is bad, stealing while armed with a weapon is worse.

I would argue that while the motivation for cheating is an important factor, I still believe the act of cheating ALONE, is of concern and should be dealt with. I don't necessarily advocate kicking a player to the curb for fudging a die roll, especially if that inidividual is a friend. But I do think something should be done, whether it's talking about the issue, or adjusting the rule set to help eliminate the "need" or chance to cheat.

 

[The Levitator]

I voted care because it's a game of chance and my group feels it should be played that way. If you are just going to allow people to use whatever numbers they see fit for the situation, why not go totally diceless? I've talked to a couple of DM's who use no form of random number generation and they seem to really like it. Granted, their groups are comprised of good friends who are basically all on the same page. As much as I love the roleplaying aspect, I still love the GAME aspect of D&D. Isn't the whole point of spending hours and hours generating statistics and selecting skills and feats a little bit reliant on chance and statistics? Why would 1 player spend a bunch of time developing the best character he can when the player next to him can just use whatever numbers suit them for the moment? We don't have any problems with it, because I use DM Genie and we play diceless, allowing DM Genie to make all the rolls. Not only does this help hide the mechanics so that we can focus on the story, it pretty much eliminates cheating on both sides of the screen. My feeling is, as long as everyone is held to the same rules, then there shouldn't be a problem. If you are going to let one player or the DM cheat, then let everyone cheat. That way, nobody feels left out, as they have the freedom to fudge rolls like everyone else. If you aren't going to allow cheating, then don't allow any kind of cheating. Games have rules for a reason. If you are going to change the rules by allowing fudging, I would just make sure that everyone gets to play by the same rules and then I don't think you will have a problem.

Just because a group allows fudging doesn't make them a room full of cheaters either. If they agree that fudging rolls is acceptable, then it's no longer cheating. As long as they are all playing by the same set of rules, everyone should be happy. Some people just don't really care about the numbers, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as EVERYONE in the group feels the same way. A player who plays by the rules probably won't enjoy playing with a group who fudges rolls. A player who fudges rolls probably won't enjoy playing with a group who plays by the rules. The key to a good group is discussing the paramaters and acceptability thresholds beforehand and find a system that workds best for the whole group.

I don't think there is necessarily an absolute either way. The group needs to decide for themselves how they want to play the game as a group and then stick to that decision.

 

[jokamachi]

Most of the types of "cheating" I have seen might not be called cheating per se, but it almost always affects the outcome for the player's PCs.

One pet peeve I have is that when players misread a rule, it's almost always in their favor. There's really no way to call someone out on this, but when you're dealing with a rules system as comprehensive as D&D, the excuse 'I thought I was reading it correctly' is a perpetual get out of jail free card. Consequently, I find that I have to do a lot of reading whenever players use new abilities or powers.

Another is simple forgetfulness, which is equally difficult to call someone on. 'I forgot that my buff had run out,' or 'I thought Fly lasted hours per level,' or 'I forgot to write down the damage from the Golem... whoops!,' or 'Oh, I thought I had another potion of cure serious wounds' (when the last one was used weeks ago) seems to be a convenient way of playing for some people. Again, there's no way of confirming whether someone uses this as a survival tactic, but as a DM you start to notice patterns in certain people.

Metagaming. I only occasionally do this as a player, but some do it more than others. Sure, everyone slips, and again, what to do when it happens? I sometimes chop XP as a result, but it really doesn't stem the tide when people make a career of meta-gaming. 'How do you know that?' is my common retort to any phenominal leap of knowledge a PC makes.

I haven't seen anyone cheat with dice, altohough we had one guy whose dice were so illegible (color of the numbers and the die were almost identical) that only he could read it up close. We had to start taking his word for it whenever he rolled. That became unnerving after a while.

 

[GSHamster]

:\ Nice way to derrail the discussion. I'm not sure (haven't had my morning coffee yet) but I think I've just been accused theft. :\ It's like in the other thread, when I got accused of not caring becuase the cheater was a woman :\ wtf?

GSHamster, correlation (which I'm not sure exists) does not prove causality or a connection.

I'd be more interested in observing how close this poll's number match those of people who prefer point-buy for stat-generation because they require a "level" playing field. Isn't issuing blanket statements fun? :\

I'm not accusing you personally of cheating/stealing. I'm just pointing that we had a poll (on what some see as another ethical issue) a few weeks ago that gave very similar results.

Is there overlap between the two groups? Maybe, maybe not. Though I find it hard to believe that people who steal books would object to cheating. (People who are okay with a little cheating may still draw the line at actual stealing, I think.)

And finally, though correlation does not imply causation, it often does imply a connection, through a hidden variable. For example, ice cream sales spike when the drowning rates increase. Neither causes the other, but they are both connected to each other through the temperature.

 

[swrushing]

2) Cheating for selfish, personal reasons whereby the player in question is going out of their way to either be the centre of attention, gain at the disadvantage to others, or to purposefully impact the game in a negative way.

I would suggest that if you replace the first word of that sentence (cheating) with any action involved in an RPG thats "legal", its equally bad/wrong/disruptive.

The way I see it, I can tolerate #1 as long as it never escalates to #2.

i agree.

Finally, I'm not convinced that #3 occurs as often as some posters claim,

I may have missed those claims.
how often do you expect this to occur?
or are you really saying, in a sly way, that you don't think 3 really ever occurs?

 

[swrushing]

Most of the types of "cheating" I have seen might not be called cheating per se, but it almost always affects the outcome for the player's PCs.

indeed, inventory mismanagement is one of the more common IMX.

One pet peeve I have is that when players misread a rule, it's almost always in their favor.

one of my rules of thumb is "mistakes aren't mono-directional. A series of erros which are consistently to the favor is not a coincidence."

I haven't seen anyone cheat with dice, altohough we had one guy whose dice were so illegible (color of the numbers and the die were almost identical) that only he could read it up close. We had to start taking his word for it whenever he rolled. That became unnerving after a while.

i think every group has one of those. he has the transparant clear micro-d20 with just plusses and the numbers aren't colored in. He has to pick up that die and look at the other side to divine whether its a 2 or a 12.

 

[Arnwyn]

So, for me, if by cheating you mean "breaking the rules of the game so that everyone is having more fun" [whether that means you're having more fun, and nobody else is having less fun; or everyone, individually, is having more fun makes no difference to me], then i could care less. If by cheating you mean "breaking the social contract, and doing things that are unacceptable to the rest of the group", then, yes, i find that unacceptable. I just think it's presumptuous to assume that those two situations are linked such that one necessarily implies the other. Not for the way i play.

That's fascinating and all, but I have no idea why you quoted my post.

 

[Frozen DM]

I may have missed those claims.
how often do you expect this to occur?
or are you really saying, in a sly way, that you don't think 3 really ever occurs?

Ok maybe a little sly I admit

I honestly do not think people cheat for group benefit, or as a means of improving the game for others very often. Maybe there are a few people out there who do it (and are posting in this thread to provide a devil's advocate point of view), but I would suspect that most people who cheat in RPGs do so because they feel they can achieve some sort of "win" condition, to ensure their own character survives, or for some reason that is more harmful than helpful.

So far it appears that the side that is advocating that cheating can be tolerated is attaching themselves to the concept that some cheaters do so for the greater good, while those opposed to cheating are attaching themselves to the concept that cheaters do so for personal self-interest. Which of course makes sense, since in any debate, you do not want to start bringing out arguments that would run counter to your point of view. And providing a counter-example (the idea of beneficial cheating) can be one of the most powerful arguments available.

So I think the conclusion that we've arrived at (as far as I can see) is that for some people cheating can be tolerated as long as the context within which it is done is not harmful, but in fact beneficial to the game, while others don't like it, no matter the context. I fall into the latter camp.

 

[iwatt]

So I think the conclusion that we've arrived at (as far as I can see) is that for some people cheating can be tolerated as long as the context within which it is done is not harmful, but in fact beneficial to the game, while others don't like it, no matter the context. I fall into the latter camp.

Personally, as long as it's not harmful (and it's got to be noticeably harmful to count ) I don't require it to be beneficial.