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[kalani]

Despite the inevitable accusations of "meta-gaming", the Admins SHOULD put out word which module(s) have a / the Ravenloft Exit in them. So we know which modules to pre-schedule to properly finish the Season. Within the module, explain to the DM where to find the Exit, and how to properly signpost it.
Some groups will want to completely play out the adventure first, some groups will want to make a bee-line to the Exit; surely an adventure's flowchart can accommodate both.

As noted above, an 'off-camera escape hatch' which takes like 500 GP and/or 60 Downtime days would be a reasonable Plan B.

While I understand the reasoning behind this post - I vehemently disagree (personal opinion). As an avid Ravenloft and gothic horror fan, I can say for the record that knowing how to escape (or where) hugely deflates the tension, uncertainty, and anxiety that the player should be experiencing when playing these adventures. The DM is strongly encouraged to make the player feel aversion, shock, tension, etc - rather than simply say "your character experiences X".... Ravenloft is supposed to evoke a visceral emotional and psychological response from the players.

Knowing where to exit, will only deflate the sense of dramatic tension and visceral fear for their characters that the players should be experiencing. As a DM, you want your players jumping at every shadow, and fearing for their characters lives when even a simple zombie crawls out of its tomb.... That is done through visceral imagery and keeping everything cloaked in metaphoric darkness. In Ravenloft, the unknown can hurt you, and has nasty big pointy teeth.

Instead of saying that a room contains zombies, DMs in Ravenloft should instead evoke the imagery and visceral horror the party faces......
"The stench of decay and buzzing of flies assails your senses as three shambling corpses rise silently on creaking and popping joints. Blank eyes stare out of their maggot-ridden faces as you stare in horror at the remains of the Bakers son and his mother who you saw brutally slain not the day previously. As they shamble toward you, the boy reaches toward you with his glistening wet, and decaying hand - flesh pulled back from his face in a rictus grin of death. Not two days previous, the smiling happy child was playing hackysack with his friends, and stopped to give you directions to his fathers shop. Now, all light and joy from that once-happy face have fled, only to be replaced with the unbeating heart of the undead. As the three inch toward you in a shambling gait, everyone roll for initiative."

This is an extreme example of the kind of imagery a DM should try to evoke when running these adventures. Not every DM is an author, nor are they expected to be - but DMs should at least try to capture some image of revulsion and the grotesque mixed with something familiar whenever possible - even if it is only a brief mention of the mixed scent of decay and fragrant summer blossoms, once beloved of the Bakers wife.

As a player, you have no idea what you are facing here. Yes it could be a zombie - but it could be much worse. The fact that you knew this zombie-esq creature personally, only makes the punch to the gut that much worse. It also calls up images of moral dilema's, as you knew this rotting corpse personally - do you hack it down it disgust, kill it out of pitty, back away in horror at the thought of the bright happy child now suddenly trying to eat your face, try to reason with the child and bring it back to his senses, or try to restrain him as this isn't his fault? Either way, gothic horror shouldn't be a simple case of "I hit it with my sword".

Also, in Ravenloft - I wouldn't let players simply identify creatures with a simple knowledge check. Nothing should ever be certain. Everything should be questionable, and even the familiar (such as a humble zombie) should seem alien and foreboding. That, and the Dark Powers deliberately and maliciously veil evil (and the truth) from being discovered with their alien and unknowing agenda.

 

[Pauper]

Agree, although it really needs to be 0 gp / 10 days max to be worth having; otherwise characters will still end up stuck. Either play nice and make it easy, or play hardball and don't have it at all, but a milquetoast middleground is not worth having, IMO.

A gold piece cost to an escape option would be justifiable -- the Vistani are known to have some ability to travel through the mists, and many are willing to take bribes as a persuasion.

Of course, the Vistani in Barovia are connected to Strahd by some strange agreement between himself and one of the Vistani elders, so if Strahd wants you to stay in Ravenloft (and I suspect the story behind the season will eventually reveal that your character's arrival in Ravenloft is part of Strahd's plan, so he clearly wants you there), it would be very difficult to find a Vistani willing to go against Strahd's wishes, for any amount of gold.

Wandering blindly into the Mists, on the other hand, is a good way to be lost forever -- there are far worse places than Barovia in Ravenloft, after all.

A good compromise might be a Mist-walking downtime activity that gives you a roll, like the one in Season 2 regarding being tried for breaking the rule about arcane casting in Mulmaster. If you've done things to anger the Vistani or otherwise draw the attention of the Dark Powers, you've got a solid chance of being lost forever, but with enough time and effort, you just might escape.

--
Pauper

 

[Steve_MND]

Agree, although it really needs to be 0 gp / 10 days max to be worth having; otherwise characters will still end up stuck. Either play nice and make it easy, or play hardball and don't have it at all, but a milquetoast middleground is not worth having, IMO.

The "milquetoast middleground" you refer to is something suggested to help address the fact that some players may end up getting their characters stuck in there permanently through no fault of their own, because they are unable -- for whatever reasons -- to be able to participate in the session that includes the mystical 'escape plan' built into the story arc itself. It has to do with addressing a suspected weak point in the proposed campaign structure for this upcoming season, and nothing to do with playing nice or hardball within the confines of the story itself. It's a suggested as a completely out-of-character failsafe option.

 

[Pauper]

As an avid Ravenloft and gothic horror fan, I can say for the record that knowing how to escape (or where) hugely deflates the tension, uncertainty, and anxiety that the player should be experiencing when playing these adventures. The DM is strongly encouraged to make the player feel aversion, shock, tension, etc - rather than simply say "your character experiences X".... Ravenloft is supposed to evoke a visceral emotional and psychological response from the players.

I agree with you on the spirit of the setting, but including an 'escape from the Mists' downtime activity wouldn't be for the benefit of Ravenloft fans (a good number of whom would probably be perfectly OK with their characters being trapped in Ravenloft forever), but for folks who don't care for the setting, whether they know it in advance or learn it by playing Season 4.

I mean, there are folks out there who feel that D&D, at its core, is a game about a bunch of folks getting together in a backwater and teaming up to become The Avengers; Season 4 is going to completely wreck their idea of what D&D is supposed to be. If those people want to get out of Ravenloft, they should be able to do so, not because it's easy, but because we don't want to punish them for trying to play the game in a different way and deciding they don't like it. I'm not saying it should be easy, or even certain, that a character who wants to escape should succeed, especially if they've taken deliberate steps to disrespect the powers in the setting. But if they've given the setting an honest try and decided it's just not their cup of tea, laughing at them that their character is still lost forever because they didn't dot their 'i's and cross their 't's with respect to a style of play they don't care for seems crass.

I mean, it worked for Lord Soth, after all. ; )

--
Pauper

 

[kalani]

According to Tracy and Margarett - Soth was never in Ravenloft, he was instead trapped by Takhissis (but that is a major tangent).

As far as the Vistani leaving Ravenloft is concerned
That is not entirely true. Vistani can freely travel through the closed borders of Barovia due to the potion given to them by Strahd which protects them from the deadly poison (the forumula is a closely guarded secret of theirs). They do not however, have any special ability to travel through the mists (other than an uncanny ability to always exit the mists in the domain of their choice).

There are cases of Vistani being prevented from leaving through the closed borders of other domains however, but there are also cases of them being able to ignore the closed borders of other domains - so, it appears that some Vistani can freely travel the mists, while others are less talented.

The only known Vistani who can come and go from Ravenloft is Madame Eva. She has traveled to other worlds on occasion (including Toril), but has never revealed how she does so. She is also extremely old, and IIRC was alive in Barovia prior to the Mists claiming it (making her over 100 years old) .... This is further supported by the fact that in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Madame Eva is no longer human (but is instead an annis hag). When Strahd fell and his land was corrupted, she (along with her coven) were transformed into hags as a result.

This is consistent with her long lifespan, however this could also be due to the fact that her particular tribe exists in a non-linear timespan (as Madame Eva has been seen after her murder at the hands of Jaqualine Montarri).

It is unknown whether all Vistani have this potential, or whether it is a gift unique to Madame Eva. If it is a unique gift (likely in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft chronology), that makes me suspect she has some connection to the Dark Powers that has never been revealed as the Dark Powers are suspected of even being able to prevent gods from leaving the demiplane.

This matters little in respect to season 4 however. Curse of Strahd is essentially a retelling and expansion of I6 Castle Ravenloft (for a total of 2 reboots to I6).

As such, it occurs early in the timeline of Ravenloft, prior to Azalin entering the demiplane. As such, no other domain (other than Barovia) exists at this point in the chronology. In fact, Strahd himself has not yet met any creature even close to his equal (Jandar was the first to come close to that, and he walked into the sunlight to face his final death, while Azalin was the first that was truly his equal and was granted a domain for his efforts).

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft vs. Curse of Strahd
While both of these products are a retelling and expansion to I6, Tracy Hickman had nothing to do with EtCR (it was written by James Wyatt and Bruce R. Cordell). CoS however brings back the original authors and gives them licence to retell the story with a bigger budget and higher page count. As such, CoS is essentially the story Tracy would have written if I6 was a hardcover adventure. To that end, I now consider EtCR as "extended universe/legacy" while CoS is canon (to use the Starwars canon reference for a moment).

 

[Steve_MND]

While I understand the reasoning behind this post - I vehemently disagree (personal opinion). As an avid Ravenloft and gothic horror fan, I can say for the record that knowing how to escape (or where) hugely deflates the tension, uncertainty, and anxiety that the player should be experiencing when playing these adventures. The DM is strongly encouraged to make the player feel aversion, shock, tension, etc - rather than simply say "your character experiences X".... Ravenloft is supposed to evoke a visceral emotional and psychological response from the players.

While I agree with this sentiment as far as the actual setting is concerned, the idea of an 'escape hatch' (or to a lesser extent, knowing where the 'exit' mod is) has zero to do with the setting. It has everything to do with the structure of an Organized Play Shared Campaign, which is based (by definition) on the idea that a player can theoretically take any legal character to any other table of that OP campaign and play there.

To look at it a different way, take, for example, if the same rule was put in place with the mid-tier module 1-10, Tyranny in Phlan. What if when you played any modules from 1-1 through 1-9, you HAD to have played and succeeded in getting out of Phlan in 1-10. If you did not get that opportunity to play that mod -- or worse yet with the current no-replay rules, did not successfully complete it -- then that character would NEVER be able to play in ANY other Adventure League module, ever again, because they were still stuck in Phlan. And what, especially, if that story arc was designed to be very insular and tightly-knit from the beginning, meaning it'd be relatively unlikely for that one mod to be randomly played by a group or table, because it really only makes sense properly within the context of the entire story arc.

That is -- as far as we've heard -- essentially what they are proposing for Season 4. These suggestions that have been proposed have nothing to do with Ravenloft's setting, and everything to do about the structures of the AL OP Campaign and how it operates. There are precious few ways to drive away new players or discourage existing players that to take a favorite character that they've developed and grown attached to, and manufacture a situation where you must tell them that -- through no fault of their own -- they are no longer able to play them in any other campaign module, ever again.

These aren't proposed as a way of lessening the tension of the Season 4 setting; they're proposed to provide an alternative for those people who inevitably have Real Life interfere with their gaming.

 

[kalani]

The admins make no promises that just because something has been done one way, it will continue to be done that way. In fact, they guarantee that they will "change things up" every few seasons.

As such, just because characters are free to play any adventure from seasons 1 - 3, does not mean that characters who play season 4 adventures must also be free to play any other adventure as well. This is by design, and is intended that way. Characters who play Curse of Strahd adventures (either the hardcover, launch event, or DDAL modules) are trapped within Ravenloft, and are unable to play any other adventure until such times as they find an escape.

This is the rule for these adventures. Just because other adventures work differently, does not change this fact.

Does this mean there is a risk of becoming permanently trapped in Ravenloft?
Yes. But there are no guarantees with any character that they will not suffer a permanent fate of one kind or another.... A character who dies and is unable to afford the cost of raise dead is permanently dead until such times as they can afford the cost (usually from DM rewards). Likewise, a character who contracts vampirism or lycanthropy must cure the affliction before the start of their next episode or adventure or be indefinitely retired until such times as they do so. A character who is petrified, likewise needs spellcasting services (greater restoration or stone to flesh IIRC) in order to be returned to life.

Finally, characters whose bodies are disintegrated or mutilated (head or vital organs removed - nonvital limbs should not be a barrier to raise dead, but would not be reattached in the process) require reincarnation, resurrection and/or true resurrection in order to be revived. As these spells require a high level druid, or a tier 4 cleric to cast - such characters are likely to remain dead for the indefinite future.

In the case of vampirism specifically - it requires either a wish spell (cast by a PC), or the character to be slain and then resurrected via any of the normal methods. If they end the adventure alive, they were not killed and so exist in a limbo of being unable to start a new adventure until such times as they cure their affliction. While I personally would allow PCs to kill said character (or cast wish) at the start of their next adventure, not all DMs will be that lenient.

The same holds true for characters trapped in Ravenloft. You are trapped until you escape. If you fail to escape, you remain trapped...

That doesn't mean that the admins may not provide other methods of escape in season 5 (or later), but at this time - unless you find an exit within the adventure itself, you remain trapped. End of story.

 

[Steve_MND]

The admins make no promises that just because something has been done one way, it will continue to be done that way. In fact, they guarantee that they will "change things up" every few seasons.

I'm not saying that they can't -- or even shouldn't -- "change things up." I'm just saying that there are a few (a precious few, but a few nonetheless) elements that you SHOULD NOT change if you are trying to run something as an OP-style campaign, because if you do, then it is no longer an OP-style campaign, but something else.

I feel that setting up a situation like this -- based not on in-character or in-game actions but rather the bureaucratic structure of a participatory story arc -- is a poor choice and not ultimately in the best interests of the campaign. Just a personal opinion, of course, but one that I feel very strongly about, and will continue to argue against when and if the discussion comes up.

If they continue to make certain changes like this, I am starting to think that a complete restructuring of the concept of the "Adventurer's League" may be worthwhile, as it is slowly morphing away from the traditional Organized Play framework that they advertise it as. I know it was announced recently about some new terminology coming up shortly, so maybe we'll see what happens at that point.

 

[kalani]

Edit: Ignore post - I am tired and saw the word "technology" instead of "Terminology".... Sigh.

 

[Pauper]

Edit: long, rambling discussion of Ravenloft follows -- be warned!

According to Tracy and Margarett - Soth was never in Ravenloft, he was instead trapped by Takhissis (but that is a major tangent).

That is a major tangent, and one I won't touch. I'll simply point out that the Hickmans' opinion of what is canon in Dragonlance is almost exactly the same as Ed Greenwood's opinion of what is canon in the Forgotten Realms -- respect as creators, but they do not own the rights, so cannot declare what is 'officially' canon. (To confirm this, see Tracy Hickman's own blog post about this: http://www.trhickman.com/qa-owns-dragonlance/ )

As far as the Vistani leaving Ravenloft is concerned
That is not entirely true. Vistani can freely travel through the closed borders of Barovia due to the potion given to them by Strahd which protects them from the deadly poison (the forumula is a closely guarded secret of theirs). They do not however, have any special ability to travel through the mists (other than an uncanny ability to always exit the mists in the domain of their choice).

You might want to check with John W. Mangum on this one: "Vistani can navigate the Mists, and can lead others to any destination." (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Category:Vistani)

That same page notes that "[t]he Vistani are a human sub-race of gypsy wanderers who centuries ago adopted the Land of the Mists as their home. It in turn has adopted them, granting them several unique abilities that command respect and inspire fear. It is possible that their place or origin either is lost to them or is mythical. It is suggested that they can still venture beyond the Land of the Mists and they have been encountered on Gothic Earth in particular." Gothic Earth was the setting for the Masque of the Red Death setting that became a popular Organized Play campaign in its own right back in the day.

There are cases of Vistani being prevented from leaving through the closed borders of other domains however, but there are also cases of them being able to ignore the closed borders of other domains - so, it appears that some Vistani can freely travel the mists, while others are less talented.

That's a different question -- yes, not every Vistani is powerful enough to defy the will of the domains' Darklords. That's a very different thing than saying they can't navigate the Mists.

This is further supported by the fact that in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Madame Eva is no longer human (but is instead an annis hag). When Strahd fell and his land was corrupted, she (along with her coven) were transformed into hags as a result.

I suspect that may have been ret-conned, as the gypsy fortuneteller you could summon on Twitter looked less like an annis hag and more like an elderly gypsy woman -- that character was explicitly identified as Madame Eva.

This is consistent with her long lifespan, however this could also be due to the fact that her particular tribe exists in a non-linear timespan (as Madame Eva has been seen after her murder at the hands of Jaqualine Montarri).

Or, yeah, they could just go with the Doctor Who solution. Timey-wimey!

It is unknown whether all Vistani have this potential, or whether it is a gift unique to Madame Eva. If it is a unique gift (likely in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft chronology), that makes me suspect she has some connection to the Dark Powers that has never been revealed as the Dark Powers are suspected of even being able to prevent gods from leaving the demiplane.

Suspected yes, but not confirmed -- Vecna's escape from Ravenloft is still canon, as far as I'm aware.

This matters little in respect to season 4 however. Curse of Strahd is essentially a retelling and expansion of I6 Castle Ravenloft (for a total of 2 reboots to I6).

I suspect we'll meet Madame Eva during Season 4, so knowing a bit about her background may be useful to help tell the story. But it's true that, especially in her case, knowing the backstory isn't the same as knowing the truth.

As such, it occurs early in the timeline of Ravenloft, prior to Azalin entering the demiplane. As such, no other domain (other than Barovia) exists at this point in the chronology.

Ehh, we could get into a huge discussion over exactly how things exist in Ravenloft as a domain, but my guess is simply that the designers of this adventure don't want to have to re-create the entire Ravenloft setting in order to tell this story. I'll simply point out that references to 'domains of terror' both in Fifth Edition and in Fourth (when the domains were moved from the Deep Ethereal to the Shadowfell) suggest that a Fifth Edition Ravenloft may well have decided to do away with the concept of 'the Core' and simply made every domain an Island of Terror again. Since the other domains aren't relevant to the story being told in Curse of Strahd, there's simply no reason to refer to them. It doesn't mean they don't still actually exist.

In terms of adventure chronology, Azalin doesn't appear until I10 - The House on Gryphon Hill, but because Strahd isn't a spellcaster in the original module, and canonically learns spellcasting from Azalin, if the Strahd in "Curse of Strahd" has spellcasting ability (as the Strahd of "Expedition to Castle Raveloft" did), then there's a good chance Azalin is around somewhere, even if he doesn't directly play into the events of the module.

(Jandar was the first to come close to that, and he walked into the sunlight to face his final death,[snip]).

It should be noted that both Children of the Night: Vampires (an AD&D source) and Champions of Darkness (a Third Edition source) note that Jander Sunstar failed to kill himself, as he was spirited away by the Dark Powers at the last possible moment. As noted in the Fraternity of Shadows FAQ: "When the Dark Powers find a toy that they like, they do not let go of it that easily!"

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft vs. Curse of Strahd
While both of these products are a retelling and expansion to I6, Tracy Hickman had nothing to do with EtCR (it was written by James Wyatt and Bruce R. Cordell). CoS however brings back the original authors and gives them licence to retell the story with a bigger budget and higher page count. As such, CoS is essentially the story Tracy would have written if I6 was a hardcover adventure. To that end, I now consider EtCR as "extended universe/legacy" while CoS is canon (to use the Starwars canon reference for a moment).

My understanding is that the Hickmans were consulted on Curse of Strahd (which is stlll more input than they had with Expedition, I agree), but the heavy writing and design is Christopher Perkins work; Perkins has given Hickman many props, and even recommended that DMs get ahold of the original I6 module in PDF before running the new one, but he definitely refers to it as his own work, "might be my best work to date" is the phrase he used on Twitter.

I will say, though, that one of the strengths of Ravenloft as a campaign setting is that the presence of the Dark Powers -- a mysterious, overarching cabal of evil overseeing events in the setting -- justifies just about any difference between two fans' differing views of the setting. "The Dark Powers did it!" is a pretty easy way to smooth over any disagreements.

--
Pauper