Chiming in on the D&D minis (merged with "anyone buying the new Mini's?")

[John Crichton]

Henry, I would just go for the expansions because of the rares. I've picked up over 10 of them at this point and I have a pretty good mix of everything. My only complaint is that I have 3 Barghest. Oh well.

These little buggers are addicting. I found myself almost buying a case!

 

[diaglo]

One quick question for anyone who knows: Do the Harbinger packs offer the same initial mini's run as the starter packs, or do you get separate stuff in the harbinger packs from the starter packs? If it's the same, I would be better off buying 2 harbinger packs than 1 starter pack, because you get twice as many rares as buying the starter pack, correct?

same first 80. but you miss getting the d20, the cheezy booklet, and floorplans if you don't buy the starter kit.

 

[Azlan]

Actually, I think the word you were looking for was "insinuations", that is to say a "artfully indirect, often derogatory suggestion", as Webster would say.

Yes, but there wasn't anything indirect or subtle about what I was saying.

Some folks are always willing to imagine WotC as a great arbiter of some horrible master plan to rule the world and rob poor, innocent gamers of their meager funds (you know, the meager funds they absolutely must spend on a game, rather than on food or shelter).

At WotC, there are the game designers, testers, and writers, and then there are the corporate investors, bean counters, lawyers, and marketers. Although they all work for the same company, I do not necessarily lump the two groups together. However, I do know that it is the latter group and not the former who determine the direction and have the final say-so in the game design process. And anyone who thinks there isn't a problem with corporate greed and corruption nowadays, hasn't been paying enough attention to the news headlines during the past 2-3 years. So, forgive me for being wary -- I am merely put on guard by the times we're living in.

See, this isn't 'speculation', this is 'insinuation'. This is basically implying that WotC is lying.

Okay, now I'll agree: that remark of mine was insinuation.

Actually, I'd say the fact that M:tG is a really good game had a lot more to do with making them comfortably wealthy than it's format. If it were just the format, then the dozens of imitators that followed wouldn't have faltered. But the fact of the matter is that most of them were either followers, copycats or just plain bad games.

There have been many, many really good RPGs, board games, and card games that have come out during the past 20 years or so, but none of them garnered anywhere near the monetary success as MtG did. Furthermore, some of those imitators of MtG were run out of business not so much because they were followers, copycats, or just plain bad games, but because WotC put legal pressure on them due to WotC's copyrighting of ubiquitous card game concepts such as "tapping".

Some folks will want to, in the Pokemon parlance, "get 'em all." Others, like me, will just enjoy having and using them for their D&D game, and possibly use them for skirmishing. But some of us LIKE the idea of not knowing what's in the booster. There's a certain thrill in opening it and getting the Minotaur or Tiefling Captain, when you weren't certain what you'd get.

Well, okay then, you're among WotC's target group! Myself, I want an affordable line of miniatures to play the game with, without my acquiring the miniatures being part of the game -- especially since my money is on the line, here.

 

[Azlan]

During the majority of my years of gaming mini's were a rarely used luxury.

Yes, well, during the majority of my years of gaming (20 years or so), mini's were likewise a rarely-used luxury. But, then, for most of those years, the game did not depend so heavily on the use of minis as it does nowadays.

And, really, that is a great part of my argument here.

In summation...

1. WotC has made the use of mini's practically a necessity with the design of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D.

2. WotC is rolling out a huge line of "affordable" mini's, with WotC using their corporate bankroll and marketing power to produce vast quantities and variations of mini's that none of the small yet dedicated mini's companies could have ever produced.

3. And unlike the mini's lines produced by those other companies, WotC's mini's are randomly packaged as commons, uncommons, and rares -- just as their money-raking MtG and Pokemon cards were!

 

[WizarDru]

At WotC, there are the game designers, testers, and writers, and then there are the corporate investors, bean counters, lawyers, and marketers. Although they all work for the same company, I do not necessarily lump the two groups all together. However, I do know that it is the latter group and not the former who determine the direction and have the final say-so in the game design process. And anyone who thinks there isn't a problem with corporate greed and corruption nowadays, hasn't been paying enough attention to the news headlines during the past 2-3 years. So, forgive me for being wary -- I am merely put on guard by the times we're living in.

I wouldn't even try to convince you that corporate greed isn't a serious problem...but I would say that a desire for success doesn't immediately translate into that. It's not a game of extremes, necessarily, and while WotC is the big-man-on-campus in the RPG/CCG world, they're far from a large concern anywhere else. Their vast empire is really quite small. As far as the greater world is concerned, their really just a division of Hasbro, at this point. Outside of anyone who actually played the game, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who even remembers how TSR was, let alone someone like Chaosium or SJG.

And as for the bean-counters and lawyers...well, TSR had lawyers, as I'm sure you'll recall. And they weren't nearly as nice as WotC's was and are. Remember the infamous 'copyrighting' scandals? How about the 'take your website down or we'll destroy you' incidents? And it was the fundemenatal lack of bean-counters that nearly destroyed D&D as a game altogether. Those administration folks you so readily dismiss as the great corporate evil are all that keeps WotC going.

And in case you think that the suits are responsible for the horrible business decisions that WotC has made in the past, you need only do a few quick seraches right here on these various forums about Chainmail, the OGL, and a host of other topics. You'll find plenty of former WotC employees who mention how it was specific designers within the company who often pushed through foolish decisions. Are the suits probably responsible for a few bad decisions? I'm sure they are. But I'm also sure they're responsible for many good ones. Like the idea to create the OGL/d20 license. Like the idea to go over TSR's books. Like the idea to do test marketing on the D&D market and find out how gamers were, how they played and what they wanted. Things TSR NEVER DID.

I recently met with James Ernest, the head of Cheapass games, for example. He understood how to run a business, AS WELL as design games. Not every company is that lucky. For those companies, those bean counters are a necessity. And let's be honest, how many of those CCGs came from companies that were able to manage their business affairs well, and were able to come up with a good idea that didn't involve copying WotC's basic concept? Not that many. Feng Shui, Star Trek, Star Wars and a few others, but at the time there were literally dozens of crappy imitators. Remember the really bad martial arts game that had pictures of some guys from a dojo doing some simple moves and some photoshop effects added? That was one of many.

As for acquiring the minis you want, there are non-random packs coming, and virtually every store that carries them (except WotC's) will be selling individual ones, just like they do with Mage Knight, Hero Clix and others. Will rares be more expensive? Sure, but if you want them that badly, you'll pay the extra. Otherwise, normal metal minis are still available, and let's be honest, the WotC minis are not going to meet all your needs...they're not designed to.

My advice? Get D&D minis for the commons, and get metal minis or Mage Knights for the more specific minis you want. As for me, I'll buy a few more here or there, as the mood strikes me...but I've got lots and lots of minis already. 20+ years of gaming will do that. But for quick, easy minis that are already painted, these will do just fine.

 

[John Crichton]

Yes, well, during the majority of my years of gaming (20 years or so), mini's were likewise a rarely-used luxury. But, then, for most of those years, the game did not depend so heavily on the use of minis as it does nowadays.

And, really, that is a great part of my argument here.

In summation...

1. WotC has made the use of mini's practically a necessity with the design of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D.

2. WotC is rolling out a huge line of "affordable" mini's, with WotC using their corporate bankroll and marketing power to produce vast quantities and variations of mini's that none of the small yet dedicated mini's company could have ever produced.

3. And unlike the mini's lines produced by those other companies, WotC's mini's are randomly packaged as commons, uncommons, and rare -- just as their money-raking MtG and Pokemon cards were!

Hmmm, I never used miniatures before 3e. Never even crossed my mind. However, some combats tended to get a little clunky even though, as a DM, I knew the system back and forth and the players completely trusted me.

I do not believe miniatures are required to have fun or have an organized combat in 3e D&D. It helps to clear things up but I have run both 3e and 3.5e with and without miniatures in combat and I like having the option of using both. Not all battles are the same. Sometimes it is better to have a little confusion as combat is chaotic by nature.

As a DM, I tend to go by feel. Sometimes, I will use some kind of token to represent general direction of characters (without a battlemat) at the very least. Other times it's the full battlemat and miniature treatment with props and terrain. My point is that I like having the option. I haven't got the time to paint the way I want to and these things are a great option. I don't mind buying them for the whole group to use.

The M:tG business model was a good one. If this makes WotC some more money, great. Some of it will be pocketed but maybe some of it will get put back into the designers budgets. And considering that we all know that 3.5e was a business move, moreso than anything else (I am pro 3.5 just for the record) then with any luck this will push 4e back far enough to make proper progressive changes to the D&D system that continue the tradition of improvement (subjective, I know) to the game system. Not to mention playtesting up the ying-yang.

 

[Azlan]

These little buggers are addicting. I found myself almost buying a case!

Exactly!

 

[WizarDru]

I do not believe miniatures are required to have fun or have an organized combat in 3e D&D. It helps to clear things up but I have run both 3e and 3.5e with and without miniatures in combat and I like having the option of using both. Not all battles are the same. Sometimes it is better to have a little confusion as combat is chaotic by nature.

Not to mention that at high-levels, miniatures can become impractical for some battles. When half the party can deliver attacks at a range of 1000+ feet, miniatures become problematic if the combat splits up. Add in teleportation and transit effects, like at will Dim Dooring, magic carpets, mounted characters, flying characters and so on...and minis can be cumbersome or merely a visual aid, as opposed to a solid game component.

Real world example: two games ago, we had a combat with 150 elves against 85 Githyanki raiders, 15 Durka'Gith, 2 Baklash Dreadnaughts, 4 Blackweave Warlocks, 1 undead gith spellcaster and two astral brigs. The PCs consisted of a 21st level cleric, three paladins and mounts (one of whom can fly), a shadowdancer with three shadows who can shadowwalk, shadowjump and use a magic carpet; a shapechange 21st level wizard, a 20th level druid with 7 shamblers, a celestial Roc and his primary animal companion, two arcane archers (one of whom can fly) and 5 swift-runners of Ehlonna.

Minis are only of so much use in such a battle, I can assure you. Especially when the Dreanaughts are breathing fire and using their anti-magic cone eye-rays at a range of 150+ feet, archers are cutting loose at up to 2000 feet and spells are flying every which way at 400+ feet. Minis required? No, sir.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, well, during the majority of my years of gaming (20 years or so), mini's were likewise a rarely-used luxury. But, then, for most of those years, the game did not depend so heavily on the use of minis as it does nowadays.

And, really, that is a great part of my argument here.

In summation...

1. WotC has made the use of mini's practically a necessity with the design of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D.

2. WotC is rolling out a huge line of "affordable" mini's, with WotC using their corporate bankroll and marketing power to produce vast quantities and variations of mini's that none of the small yet dedicated mini's companies could have ever produced.

3. And unlike the mini's lines produced by those other companies, WotC's mini's are randomly packaged as commons, uncommons, and rares -- just as their money-raking MtG and Pokemon cards were!

1> Mini's aren't made necessary, but certain combat tactics are easier to take advantage of using minis.

2> I don't see this as a bad thing. I've been looking for something like this for over 20 years. Frankly I'm feeling they these are WAY overdue. Glad they're being done.

3. Just because they packaged them that way doesn't mean your Friendly Local Game Store (FLGS) has to sell them that way. Some stores are breaking some boxes down and selling singles or groups of singles. Also some groups of players and DMs are buying a bunch and trading around to help each other get what they need or sharing when a game is taking place.

 

[John Crichton]

Exactly!

Yeah, I am prone to "collector's syndrome." I lovingly refer to it as being a shill for the RPG industry.