D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

Yaarel

Mind Mage
That is generally what the other wizards and their summons are up to.


Wizards may well have ~70% of the fighter's HP, and even taking AC into account, frontliners tend to get hit more.
That strategy works for about one encounter, not for an adventure.

Then the next encounter lacks those higher level slots.

TPK.
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
You are assuming that I would detail all if the possible reasons why a player needs to find an object with a more significant attachment like a tea kettle magically linked to their keep back elsewhere so they could play what if one by one until they think they find another loophole. It doesn't matter how you might gm for your own player, we are having this discussion because I gave an example of ways a gm could yank the noose handed to a player over an objection they seemed to let slide. Simply moving the tree into said cell changing the anchor point the tree that grew the branch provides, or or any number of other methods could be other examples.

Again it boils down to PCs & some NPCs & monsters having different rules & abilities. Death saves for example... You don't know how much gold & time on the part of an npc capable of plotting in geological timescales was involved in setting things in motion either.
Why would the wizard not know how their spell works? They learned to teleport but not what is and isn't an associated object? How does that make sense? Just tell the player that teleport doesn't exist. Trust me, everyone will being happier rather than trying to play a mind reading game of mother may I with the DM.

I don't agree that you can move the tree and thereby move the location. The branch is an associated object because the tree it is part of is an associated object. But they're both associated with the location, which is the clearing (technically, the area right next to the clearing where the tree was). So moving the tree would have literally no impact on the spell whatsoever.

I suppose you could have your DM fiat NPC build the inescapable cell around that location. I mean, it's fiat, so you could literally just have them wake up in the cell without any illusion of agency whatsoever. Which is probably the way to go, since then you wouldn't have to wait for them to cast teleport. But then the player wouldn't be able to "learn their lesson" for using a game granted ability the way it was intended to be used, right?
 

Why would the wizard not know how their spell works? They learned to teleport but not what is and isn't an associated object? How does that make sense? Just tell the player that teleport doesn't exist. Trust me, everyone will being happier rather than trying to play a mind reading game of mother may I with the DM.
Yeah. There are certain spells I feel are not conductive for the sort of game I want to run (many teleportation type spells among them.) So I just banned them. I feel it is far fairer and clearer than gotcha games.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why would the wizard not know how their spell works? They learned to teleport but not what is and isn't an associated object? How does that make sense? Just tell the player that teleport doesn't exist. Trust me, everyone will being happier rather than trying to play a mind reading game of mother may I with the DM.
I agree with this message. The wizard would have a very good idea what an associated object is. It wouldn't be fool proof. The rock they grab might just be a rock and not part of the building wall, but they aren't going to grab a pebble from a clearing and think it is sufficient. They'll know how the spell works.
 


I get that you want teleport to be handled with kiddie gloves. I don't.
why do you put people and ideas down like this? how is it kid gloves to think that 5% is too high?

I treat it like it should be treated.
there it is.. your way is best everyone else is wrong... sigh...
As something that is dangerous and could make the wizard safe or sorry, depending on how the dice gods rule things.
great you house ruled a 5% gotcha into a spell. 1 spell. (I mean I'm sure you have plenty of other house rules but we are talking about 1)

now how does "I made up a house rule where 5% of the time the spell puts you in danger" and diffrent then "I ruled that 5% of the time the fighter swings he drops his weapon" (BTW I have walked from more then 1 table for critical fumble rules hitting multi attackers too hard so no calling BS or saying no one would)
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
As DM, for players to run away from a battle can be a sensible decision, and is sometimes necessary.

Whether they flee by foot or teleport is all the same in my eyes. There still is a feeling of having failed the encounter. It isnt something players normally want to do.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Rope Trick and Tiny Hut are usually safe resting areas.

But the Mansion spell? That seems underpowered compared to its slot. What difficulty do you experience with it?
Heh. The hut, too. I don't like instant safe resting spots. Finding a good spot and/or danger is part of the adventuring challenge. It's a personal preference, not a matter of difficulty.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Heh. The hut, too. I don't like instant safe resting spots. Finding a good spot and/or danger is part of the adventuring challenge. It's a personal preference, not a matter of difficulty.
At the slot of Magnificent Mansion, the foe accessing Dispel Magic is likely. Especially when the foes have 24 hours to figure out a way to dispel it. The spell is a luxury, and less effective as a defense.

I treat Magnificent Mansion as a narrative device, albeit a vital one, because it is a useful way to interact with a "nature being", such as a rock, tree, or river.

(A rock with a powerful mindful presence can cast the Mansion to invite the party into a "rocky" mansion, where one of the "servants" represents the rock itself.)
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
great you house ruled a 5% gotcha into a spell. 1 spell. (I mean I'm sure you have plenty of other house rules but we are talking about 1)
There is no "gotcha" that I house ruled in. There's no "gotcha" at all. The danger is inherent in an uncontrolled teleport. You have to house rule it out.
now how does "I made up a house rule where 5% of the time the spell puts you in danger"
I made up no house rule. I did make a ruling on how often the danger inherent to the spell happens(and it's actually less than 5%), because the spell is silent on that.
and diffrent then "I ruled that 5% of the time the fighter swings he drops his weapon" (BTW I have walked from more then 1 table for critical fumble rules hitting multi attackers too hard so no calling BS or saying no one would)
There is no "drop weapon" inherent in a swing the way there is inherent danger in an uncontrolled teleport. You cannot control where you end up and dangerous places are on the list of possibilities unless you house rule those out.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I treat Magnificent Mansion as a narrative device, albeit a vital one, because it is a useful way to interact with a "nature being", such as a rock, tree, or river.

(A rock with a powerful mindful presence can cast the Mansion to invite the party into a "rocky" mansion, where one of the "servants" represents the rock itself.)
That's really cool and I might steal that. :)
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
There is no "gotcha" that I house ruled in. There's no "gotcha" at all. The danger is inherent in an uncontrolled teleport. You have to house rule it out.

I made up no house rule. I did make a ruling on how often the danger inherent to the spell happens(and it's actually less than 5%), because the spell is silent on that.

There is no "drop weapon" inherent in a swing the way there is inherent danger in an uncontrolled teleport. You cannot control where you end up and dangerous places are on the list of possibilities unless you house rule those out.
IMO the only difference is what is considered the reasonable list of possibilities and their corresponding chances.

For me 5% is too much for most scenarios but I do think some non-zero chance is appropriate for most every scenario.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
IMO the only difference is what is considered the reasonable list of possibilities and their corresponding chances.

For me 5% is too much for most scenarios but I do think some non-zero chance is appropriate for most every scenario.
It's not actually 5% for me. One of my house rules is a Fate Deck of MtG cards. Those get drawn on a 1. They can be good or bad, depending on the situation. And any given card can be interpreted as good or bad, also depending on the situation, so I can't say that it will be 2.5% chance of being good and 2.5% chance of being bad.

Since it's a Fate draw, it also doesn't necessarily have to do with where you end up. The right card might mean some weird magical confluence caused an item to be left behind, or countless other possible things going right or wrong.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
It's not actually 5% for me. One of my house rules is a Fate Deck of MtG cards. Those get drawn on a 1. They can be good or bad, depending on the situation. And any given card can be interpreted as good or bad, also depending on the situation, so I can't say that it will be 2.5% chance of being good and 2.5% chance of being bad.

Since it's a Fate draw, it also doesn't necessarily have to do with where you end up. The right card might mean some weird magical confluence caused an item to be left behind, or countless other possible things going right or wrong.
I like the fate card idea. Does seem to be approaching what I’d consider a house rule though. Maybe it is or isn’t. Either way a bit too close for my taste.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I like the fate card idea. Does seem to be approaching what I’d consider a house rule though. Maybe it is or isn’t. Either way a bit too close for my taste.
Yeah. There's a lot packed into what goes on with a botched teleport.

1. The possibility of something bad happening. This is an inherent part of the spell since there are bad places to end up as well as good one. No ruling or house rule is involved with that.
2. The ruling that a roll of a 1 indicates the possibility of the bad result. This is a ruling and not a house rule, because the game is silent on how to establish whether the inherent risk of something bad happening in teleport actually occurs, so a ruling is necessary.
3. The use of the Fate Deck to help out. This is pure house rule that kicks in with every roll that happens, with the exception of initiative rolls, even if then if it's a very important initiative roll it can happen.

I'd also like to add that the intended teleport spot can also increase or decrease the chances of danger. If the wizard is trying teleport the group back to the king's throne room to warn him of immediate danger to the realm and they botch it, ending up in a similar location is going to place them in front of a different king in that throne room. The unknown king's guards is not going to wait to ask questions of an unknown group of high level individuals who just appeared armed and ready in front of their king. The danger is going to be somewhere close to 100% and immediate. :p On the other hand, teleporting to a peaceful elven glade you know about and getting a similar location is very unlikely to include that sort of danger.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Good point. That has always annoyed me: why aren't more skills tied to STR?
We added two: Brawn and Grapple.

This separated Grapple from Athletics, because being good at Athletics doesn't really imply you are good at grappling and vice versa.
Brawn is used for raw feats of Strength (bending bars, lifting, breaking down doors) as well as shove attempts, however Grapple can also be used to shove.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I don't know if it would be possible, but I really wish WotC would try to have all stats have 3+ skills
It is. I did it here with some feedback from others:


And we currently use this as our skill list:

1644788287482.png

But the CON skills are still under progress a bit...
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
We added two: Brawn and Grapple.

This separated Grapple from Athletics, because being good at Athletics doesn't really imply you are good at grappling and vice versa.
Brawn is used for raw feats of Strength (bending bars, lifting, breaking down doors) as well as shove attempts, however Grapple can also be used to shove.
The downside of this is that, unless you add additional proficient skills to the fighter, you dilute the fighter's already not-stupendous impact (since one skill, athletics, previously encompassed what two skills now encompass).
 

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