D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Oofta]

if you gave a non magic jump spell that just 'worked' to every fighter and every rogue at level 7 no one would notice. if you gave them all +5 ft of move at level 11 some might notice the speed increase on a rogue... but even those small changes will get push back'

If every fighter could suddenly jump 3 times as far without magic I would definitely notice. It's not a small change.

 

[Mannahnin]

I'll make them loose it more...

Level 11+ prerequ "I never miss" when you roll below the AC of a target with a ranged attack they take damage equal to your wisdom modifier

4e had a power like this (at 1st level), the name escapes me. A very vocal contingent were not happy!

I don't see anything wrong with it. It just requires accepting that HP are an abstraction, as we're all supposed to be aware of at least since Gary spelled it out at great length in 1978, and every other PH has done since.

Heck, there are D&D variants (Into the Odd, Maze Rats, Mausritter, maybe?) that dispense with the hit roll and just do a damage roll. We don't have to go that far, but saying that a high level fighter ALWAYS degrades his opponent's defense a bit with every attack, even a "miss"? Totally reasonable within the D&D combat framework.

yeah the moveis boosted him a bit as a super soldier (each movie he got a little more)

Not as much as you would think.

Humans are a lot stronger than we're really capable of exerting because of our stamina and pain threshhold. If you max those plus strength, you can do a lot more than seems possible. Same with Vibranium, energy absorbing shield + max human reflexes and the skill the angle the shield to deflect equals an amazingly hard defense.

Yeah, Winter Soldier was the point where I realized they had abandoned the "pinnacle of natural human potential" concept for him. When you can take down a combat aircraft in flight with your hands and a dull melee weapon, we're somewhere past the usual action movie heroics. Civil War and the "holding the helicopter on the ground by muscular strength" stunt was one of the other big ones.

 

[Vaalingrade]

they were apparently not thrilled with the ability to Shout a person back to full health or something either.

Which was another clear and obvious falsehood.

 

[Oofta]

then lets not talk old. lets talk new. Forget if you liked XX edition. Would you care if there were 2 classes 1 like modern fighter and 1 like we say we want with those options next to each other? (I don;t care if we call it sword sage, warblade or warlord or something new)

There are already fighter archetypes that use magic if you want. Whether they're powerful enough is a matter of opinion. If you want to play a more magic-heavy fighter there are already several class options.

 

[Mannahnin]

If every fighter could suddenly jump 3 times as far without magic I would definitely notice. It's not a small change.

It'd be a pretty trivial thing in terms of game balance was his point, I think.

And you are illustrating his other point that even this minor a power meets with instinctive pushback from folks who conceptualize a Fighter as totally non-magical and bounded by real world physics.

For my part, I am fine with Fighters being bounded by real-world (or action movie-ish) physics at low level, but for better myth/story emulation, I think at high level martials really should be capable of supernatural deeds. This is both perfectly in keeping with folklore and faerie tales, and would better balance the classes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

4e had a power like this (at 1st level), the name escapes me. A very vocal contingent were not happy!

Assuming you mean powers that offer half damage and/or a much weaker effect on a miss, then sure. But just saying "I never miss"? Nah. Closest thing you get there is just the Reliable keyword, which doesn't prevent missing, it just means you don't expend the power until you actually do something with it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I really think for martial characters we need to chop their advancement in two halves:
From level 1 to 10 they should absolutely have mundane powers. And probably all they get up to level 20 right now can be put into this tier. That way they could compete with spells of up to 5th level.
After level 11, they should start getting suprnatural powers that can absolutely compete with spells of 6th to 9th level.

Magic reistance. True healing powers or true supernatural attack patterns.
The ranger gets whirlwind attack...

Maybe, if it is too much, they could revive paragon paths, at least for martial characters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If every fighter could suddenly jump 3 times as far without magic I would definitely notice. It's not a small change.

In varies of course for each individual. In a fantasy setting where they have developed techniques beyond what we understand they might be able to do it. As far as a jump goes, personally my limit is about 60 feet (double IRL long jump record) and maybe 20 feet vertical (grabbing that height, not landing there).

 

[Oofta]

You have never had a reaction to something without magic being involved?

Not automatically.

Alternatively: Advertising is Magic!

Do you buy every product ever advertised? D&D has a DM so if the situation is right the enemy might be demoralized. But if it only applies to the fighter and not, say the warlock that just summoned a demon to eat the boss, then it's a supernatural fighter ability. I don't want that.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I really think for martial characters we need to chop their advancement in two halves:
From level 1 to 10 they should absolutely have mundane powers. And probably all they get up to level 20 right now can be put into this tier. That way they could compete with spells of up to 5th level.
After level 11, they should start getting suprnatural powers that can absolutely compete with spells of 6th to 9th level.

Magic reistance. True healing powers or true supernatural attack patterns.
The ranger gets whirlwind attack...

Maybe, if it is too much, they could revive paragon paths, at least for martial characters.

We're kind of stuck on 4 tiers, what if it was three?

Levels 1-7: mundane (completely possible IRL)
Levels 8-14: heroic (feasible IRL, if not actually possible)
Levels 15+: super heroic (barely feasible, not possible IRL at all)