D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Scars Unseen]

Question for you then:

Why should the fighter need magic items to be effective while for the wizard, they're just gravy?

I much prefer to have the need for magic items be lessened so I can concentrate on interesting magic items that do cool/interesting stuff rather than items that just "prop up" the fighter. I hate the "need" for plussed items, weapons or armor - magic items should be fun and interesting not a necessary crutch.

Contrariwise, I'd rather have both magic items and spells put in the same category. No assumption of either. Give casters a few reliable tricks that grow on par with martial characters as current, and then anything beyond that is handed out as treasure with the same frequency as any other magic item. Have the especially reality breaking magic be tied to limited use items.

Of course, I'd also want magic items to be significantly better than simple bonuses. At high levels, I'd want some weapons on bar with Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords. Make magic items interesting, and make a toolkit as an example of how to make your own unique items.

As for why martials need external sources of power rather than internal ones, frankly, it's because D&D works on that assumption for the most part. Pretty much every D&D setting features mundane heroes with magic items to help them be effective except when either the hero is a magic user or the hero is supernatural in origin (e.g. Jander Sunstar, the elven vampire). Even high level characters like Drizzt rely on magic items to augment their skill, with their inborn ability being amazing, but not superhumanly so.

 

[Maxperson]

No guaranteed magic items. You get to be an infinity gauntlet at 20th level.

Then you can snap your fingers and cause half the magic items in the universe to wink out.

 

[Mort]

No, its a difference of design, theme, and niche. It doesnt have to be imbalanced at all.

It's only not an imbalance if the issue is recognized and the fighter gets different/better items to compensate. If casters ALSO get great cool stuff that's on par with the fighters - there absolutely can be an imbalance.

 

[Cadence]

Then you can snap your fingers and cause half the magic items in the universe to wink out.

Snap your fingers, summon the Quasar Dragon, and then leave the galaxy before it gets there. (Belch for 10,000d6 is still the best breath weapon).

 

[Vaalingrade]

This isn't about just keeping fighters down,

It absolutely is, as evidenced by all the people who admit it isn't a balance issue, just that they think a fighter even approaching pro athlete capabilities, much less fantastic expectations is a 'superhero' and you are NOT allowed to have those in THEIR D&D. You want a fun fighter, you get out of the game or sit there and eat your gruel while the wizards get to do whatever they want.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Melee is STR
Range is DEX
Fighters only get one fighting style by default
Devil has 18 AC and can attack outside of bow range.

Seriously... First, it can't attack outside of bow range. Heck, a longbow's normal range matches the 150 feet of hurl flame. And taking pot shots with disadvantage at up to 600 feet gives them a couple rounds before it is even in range.

Anyway, so let's go with modest STR 14 and DEX 14 at 11th level with proficiency bonus +4. So, three attacks per round each at +6 to hit. That is just a 12 to hit. Longbows have the same normal range as the devil's hurl flame. Since it can only replace 1 attack with this, it only gets 1 ranged attack per round against 12.

Let's say the fighters are AC 18 (plate or medium armor + defense style + dex) in general, so it needs an 11.

With a modest CON 14 each, the fighters will average 92 hp each, so it will take about 13 rounds to take out 1 fighter.

Meanwhile, with about 5 hits on average per round the fighter will kill the devil in about 10 or 11 rounds (due to resistance). Make the arrows silver, and it is half that time.

With just normal longbows and decent ability scores, no feats, or anything else.

Now, of course, you can have the devil move into range, shot, and move back so the fighters have disadvantage, etc. but then you are talking about how the scenario plays out. A party of 4 fighter PCs could easily handle such a CR 11 monster with no magic items at all.

 

[Cadence]

It absolutely is, as evidenced by all the people who admit it isn't a balance issue, just that they think a fighter even approaching pro athlete capabilities, much less fantastic expectations is a 'superhero' and you are NOT allowed to have those in THEIR D&D. You want a fun fighter, you get out of the game or sit there and eat your gruel while the wizards get to do whatever they want.

Is there anyone who said Captain America or Xena is out of bounds?

 

[Minigiant]

And a dragon can fly a mile high and dodge them all.

Maybe don't fight enemies where they are strongest if you can help it. Plus, it's not like Horned Devils wander the countryside where there's going to be room to fly 150 feet up. Encountered on the prime, which is where 11th level adventurers will most probably still be adventuring, Horned Devils will be in dungeons, castles, towers, etc. where there isn't that much room to fly and maneuver.

So run the monsters like idiots.

"I'm a fiend with a fast flying speed and infinite balls of fire. I'm gonna plot all my evil in a cave or castle with low ceiling and small rooms"

Again, everyone is looking at the problem backwards. It's not the fighters but the ridiculously powerful monsters and insane obstacles.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Does that make you a "new guard" player who grew up on Avengers and want to be able to kick a god in the nuts???

This isn't about just keeping fighters down, it is about balance and allowing PCs to shine in their role. 5E's biggest issue is they just designed it so everyone can fill every role, which means you might has well just have one class and thousands of subclasses for each viable option people can think up...

I'm an older player who has realized I play with other adults and don't need to be king nerd whose word shall not be questioned. And yes, tothe nut kicking.

Since we cant gut 9th level casters, and the fans of the current weak and lame non-casters wont let anyone bring those classes on par, the only viable option is a new class(es) for mythic heroes. Powered by Mythium or whatever the hell keyword the v-tude whiners need to hear to get over their objection to jumping 30 feet at will from level 1. It shouldn't be an issue if its better mechanically, as the BMX Bandit fans clearly don't have an issue with being weaker compared to wizards, bards, etc. Because there's no situation where those guys don't shine.

 

[Scribe]

It's only not an imbalance if the issue is recognized and the fighter gets different/better items to compensate. If casters ALSO get great cool stuff that's on par with the fighters - there absolutely can be an imbalance.

Fighter Level X - Due to your training, any weapon you use has an improved [add dmg modifier] and improved [add crit modifier]. This increases further at levels Alpha and Omega.

Fighter Level Y - Due to your training, you gain an additional [add bonus to AC] as your understanding of defensive maneuvers and amour improves.

Fighter Level Z - Due to your training, your body is hardened to the rigours of battle. You gain [add bonus to HP/Con] and resistance to poisons/disease.

Fighter Level A - Due to your training and experience facing the horrors of the world, you gain [add bonus to Will Saves]

Fighter Level B - Your training and study allows you to overcome resistance and damage reduction [levels here].

If people are still better at hitting things, continue to buff Fighters until they are the best at hitting things.