D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[DND_Reborn]

It absolutely is, as evidenced by all the people who admit it isn't a balance issue, just that they think a fighter even approaching pro athlete capabilities, much less fantastic expectations is a 'superhero' and you are NOT allowed to have those in THEIR D&D.

That isn't the same thing as keeping fighters down. Maybe they aren't raised to a level to make you happy, but that doesn't mean people aren't offering suggestions to make them better.

You want a fun fighter, you get out of the game or sit there and eat your gruel while the wizards get to do whatever they want.

If that is how your game is played, it is more an issue with the DM and your play style and how they don't work with the current system.

What you suggest isn't at all my experience. Do I think fighters (and other martials) need some improvements? Most certainly. Do I think they are sitting on the side lines or any other such thing? No at all.

 

[Mort]

Contrariwise, I'd rather have both magic items and spells put in the same category. No assumption of either. Give casters a few reliable tricks that grow on par with martial characters as current, and then anything beyond that is handed out as treasure with the same frequency as any other magic item. Have the especially reality breaking magic be tied to limited use items.

Of course, I'd also want magic items to be significantly better than simple bonuses. At high levels, I'd want some weapons on bar with Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords. Make magic items interesting, and make a toolkit as an example of how to make your own unique items.

As for why martials need external sources of power rather than internal ones, frankly, it's because D&D works on that assumption for the most part. Pretty much every D&D setting features mundane heroes with magic items to help them be effective except when either the hero is a magic user or the hero is supernatural in origin (e.g. Jander Sunstar, the elven vampire). Even high level characters like Drizzt rely on magic items to augment their skill, with their inborn ability being amazing, but not superhumanly so.

Drizzt needed those stupid scimitars because when he was written (with 2e D&D in mind) a dex based fighter (or ranger) with a low strength couldn't hit nearly as well as high strength character - so far from being broken he was actually way underpowered As a matter of fact, I don't think Dex counted for scimitars all the way up to 5e!

On a less tongue in cheek note, there's that use of the word "mundane" again. I hate that mundane gets applied to non caster PCs. They are not "mundane" they simply have a different focus. Especially in a game where everyone starts at the same level (often 1st) and then journeys from there. The D&D zero to hero journey applies to martials AND casters not just martials.

 

[Scribe]

The D&D zero to hero journey applies to martials AND casters not just martials.

So again, lets nerf those casters.

 

[Maxperson]

"I'm a fiend with a fast flying speed and infinite balls of fire. I'm gonna plot all my evil in a cave or castle with low ceiling and small rooms"

They don't get to come for a stroll on the prime, man. They get summoned and forced into service. The thing doesn't have the option to tell the wizard, "Go fork yourself, I'm going to hang out outside just in case a fighter comes along." It gets summoned and set up guarding the Pea of Ebon Flame or something like that.

Again, everyone is looking at the problem backwards. It's not the fighters but the ridiculously powerful monsters and insane obstacles.

Monsters aren't set up to fight a fighter. They're set up to fight a team of 4-5 PCs.

 

[Mecheon]

Have we seriously gotten this far without mentioning suplexing the train? Because this is what you should be able to do as a fighter. Suplex the ghost train. That's not even high level

Is there anyone who said Captain America or Xena is out of bounds?

Everyone saying "We don't want superhero stuff" is implying that its too far

 

[Mort]

Fighter Level X - Due to your training, any weapon you use has an improved [add dmg modifier] and improved [add crit modifier]. This increases further at levels Alpha and Omega.

Fighter Level Y - Due to your training, you gain an additional [add bonus to AC] as your understanding of defensive maneuvers and amour improves.

Fighter Level Z - Due to your training, your body is hardened to the rigours of battle. You gain [add bonus to HP/Con] and resistance to poisons/disease.

Fighter Level A - Due to your training and experience facing the horrors of the world, you gain [add bonus to Will Saves]

Fighter Level B - Your training and study allows you to overcome resistance and damage reduction [levels here].

If people are still better at hitting things, continue to buff Fighters until they are the best at hitting things.

Sigh every one of these (other than possibly the saves vs poison/disease and will) applies to combat and only combat. Fighters are already great in combat (they really, really are) and get LOTS of abilities for combat.

Use this same thinking and apply to the exploration/social pillar - that would be progress.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I don't think the people who play the Dungeon Crawl Classics TTRPG have to worry about overpowered casters! I don't think we can get everyone to use that system though...

DCC magic feels like "magick". D&D magic just sucks. Safe, predictable, repeatable, dull. But it is what it is.

That is an entirely separate issue from why we cant get a quadratic fighting type.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Since we cant gut 9th level casters, and the fans of the current weak and lame non-casters wont let anyone bring those classes on par, the only viable option is a new class(es) for mythic heroes. Powered by Mythium or whatever the hell keyword the v-tude whiners need to hear to get over their objection to jumping 30 feet at will from level 1. It shouldn't be an issue if its better mechanically, as the BMX Bandit fans clearly don't have an issue with being weaker compared to wizards, bards, etc.

Who says we can't? My first solution was to bring casters down a bit and then find a way to bring martials up to match them...

Personally, I think the current D&D design would work well from altering spell progression and then bringing in epic levels, so anything from 1-15 is non-super hero and 16-30 is super-hero.

Because there's no situation where those guys don't shine.

LOL you should play in my game then, because casters are not the beacons of awesomness they seem to be in yours. Even prior to the changes we've made, casters had to conserve spells and only use them when necessary. Meanwhile, martials are doing their thing most of the time without that fear.

 

[Mort]

So again, lets nerf those casters.

I've already suggested an easy means for doing so, but generally I prefer to lift up and let everyone have more fun, rather than nerfing.

 

[Scribe]

Sigh every one of these (other than possibly the saves vs poison/disease and will) applies to combat and only combat. Fighters are already great in combat (they really, really are) and get LOTS of abilities for combat.

Use this same thinking and apply to the exploration/social pillar - that would be progress.

Apologies, I forget you are satisfied with combat while people say we 'need magic items' for fights with devils or what not.