D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Baldurs_Underdark]

I just ran a game where the wizard was an Evoker. And when we played in the naturally occurring areas - dungeons, caves, outdoors, even in a castle, it didn't matter. He cast fireball as often as possible, used his Evoker ability to make all his friends immune to the damage, and threw them with impunity. He could place it to avoid destroying the wood and rope bridge, etc. Always worked. Always exactly where he needed it. Shrug.

Fireballs only do a measly 28 (8d6) average fire damage. Just give all minions at least 40 HP and if needed some extra movement/speed (or better: a misty step bonus action!!), and that glass cannon is gonna need a few tanks and a healer to save his puny a**. Balance restored.

 

[Minigiant]

Fireballs only do a measly 28 (8d6) average fire damage. Just give all minions at least 40 HP and if needed some extra movement/speed (or better: a misty step bonus action!!), and that glass cannon is gonna need a few tanks and a healer to save his puny a**. Balance restored.

If you give the enemies movement bonuses, the tanks can't hold them down.

That's the problem with post level 10 play Half the CR 10+ fly, teleport,, or have 30ft+ speed. The fighter has a Christmas list in over to work.

The DM needs to give the fighter a flight and/or speed magic item post level 9 if he or she isn't an archer. But it isn't guaranteed.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

If you give the enemies movement bonuses, the tanks can't hold them down.

That's the problem with post level 10 play Half the CR 10+ fly, teleport,, or have 30ft+ speed. The fighter has a Christmas list in over to work.

The DM needs to give the fighter a flight and/or speed magic item post level 9 if he or she isn't an archer. But it isn't guaranteed.

All I want to say: If the minions can get into melee with the wizard and hit it with a meaningful hit (so, not 1d4+0, but more like 2d6+5 and maybe add a smite or a sneak attack), that wizard will be crying "unfair" before the 3rd round of combat, showing that the wizard build isn't all that strong. Balance restored.

With one or more baddies in melee with a wizard, the martial classes have to move in to use martial tricks to save that puny glass cannon: Shove the bad guy to somewhere else, give disadvantage to the baddies if they attack anyone other than the fighter or just nova the baddie with a smite. They have plenty options.

Also, Area of Effect spells are pretty good against wizards to restore balance. Wizards are bad at dex saves, while a lot of the martial classes either have good bonus to the save or take half damage - or sometimes no damage and ignore AoE spells (* looks at the rogues *).

I maintain that the DM can solve the problem: if the evoker murders all baddies too soon, then improve the baddies and start murdering that wizard.

 

[Lyxen]

If you give the enemies movement bonuses, the tanks can't hold them down.

That's the problem with post level 10 play Half the CR 10+ fly, teleport,, or have 30ft+ speed. The fighter has a Christmas list in over to work.

The DM needs to give the fighter a flight and/or speed magic item post level 9 if he or she isn't an archer. But it isn't guaranteed.

Or, you know, the casters, knowing that their survival is at stage, give the fly buff to the fighter, or they are dead from the zerging.

 

[Steven K]

Slightly tougher....? PLAH-EASE give me a break.

By level 20, a champion fighter can slaughter hundreds of town guards... more so than any wizard could hope to match because the wizard will eventually run out of

Slightly tougher....? PLAH-EASE give me a break.

By level 20, a champion fighter can slaughter hundreds of town guards... more so than any wizard could hope to match because the wizard will eventually run out of spells.

Bruh...
Assume lvl 20 wizard and lvl 20 fighter. Both stealth their way into identical enemy capital cities, same population, same density, same defenses, etc.

"Fighter, what do you do?"

"I start an Undertale Genocide run. I casually walk up to and kill the nearest person, and then just keep walking around doing that until I get the message, "But nobody came...", then I'll move on to the next area."

"Ok, that will take some time, you start doing that and now we'll switch over to the wizard. Wizard, what do you do?"

"Hmmm... well, I'll start by making my way into the city centre.

"Alright, you arrive, now what?"

"Well, I look for a fairly open space to stand. Specifically, I want to make sure nothing could fall on me."

"Okay, there's a public square, people milling about, a bit of green space here and there, a fountain, will that do?"

"Yeah, that's fine. Okay, I stand by the fountain, concentrate on my connection to the flow of magic, and use my level nine spell slot to cast Wish, to replicate the Earthquake spell."

"Ok, [describes the effects of casting that spell]"

"Cool, I assume six seconds have passed?"

"Yeah."

"Ok, I use a fouth level slot to dimension door [n]00 ft upwards at a diagonal. When I appear, I'll start falling so Feather Fall will kick in. I'll use the next six seconds of slow fall to observe the ground below and find another suitable place to cast Earthquake from, then I'll Dimension Door to that place, wait six seconds, and cast Earthquake with my 8th level spell slot."

"Ok, that happens, massive damage ensures. Now what?"

"I pick up an object of some kind so I can teleport back here later, cast Teleport, and bamf. I'll make some tea, put my feet up, and be back here in the morning to wash, rinse, and repeat. It's been a good minutes work, I've earned a break."

"...ok then. Fighter, back to you. You've currently killed 36 civilians, and everyone else in the area has fled. I take it you keep walking?"

 

[Minigiant]

Or, you know, the casters, knowing that their survival is at stage, give the fly buff to the fighter, or they are dead from the zerging.

Fly and Haste have concentration.

You can only buff them with one.

 

[Minigiant]

All I want to say: If the minions can get into melee with the wizard and hit it with a meaningful hit (so, not 1d4+0, but more like 2d6+5 and maybe add a smite or a sneak attack), that wizard will be crying "unfair" before the 3rd round of combat, showing that the wizard build isn't all that strong. Balance restored.

With one or more baddies in melee with a wizard, the martial classes have to move in to use martial tricks to save that puny glass cannon: Shove the bad guy to somewhere else, give disadvantage to the baddies if they attack anyone other than the fighter or just nova the baddie with a smite. They have plenty options.

Also, Area of Effect spells are pretty good against wizards to restore balance. Wizards are bad at dex saves, while a lot of the martial classes either have good bonus to the save or take half damage - or sometimes no damage and ignore AoE spells (* looks at the rogues *).

I maintain that the DM can solve the problem: if the evoker murders all baddies too soon, then improve the baddies and start murdering that wizard.

But again the Fighter's job is to do the combat.

If monsters can slip past the fighter to alpha strike the mages then disengage once the warrior attempts to close in, the problem is the warrior's ability to do the job.

Frankly the game system and the fighter class is too simple that part of it breaks down outside of a corridor and underground room situation.

One of my favorite house rules is opportunity attacks hits are crits and lowers speed.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I would LOVE a Book of Nine Swords inspired class. That was one of my favorite 3.5 books (alongside Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic).

I'd also enjoy a system similar to 13th Age's (I believe) where the fighter can do different things based on the die roll. A lot of people didn't like the randomness of it, but I thought it perfectly represented the concept of the fighter taking advantage of opportunities when they came up. You weren't actively looking to trip your opponent, but you spotted the perfect opening for it, so you might as well take advantage of it.

 

[Lyxen]

Fly and Haste have concentration.
You can only buff them with one.

I specifically mentioned "the buff", whatever it was, knowing that there's going to be only one with concentration. Both are good, depending on circumstances.

One of my favorite house rules is opportunity attacks hits are crits and lowers speed.

If a fighter wants to play the tank properly and intercept threats, he has to take Sentinel, and he has the opportunity to do so.

 

[Mort]

Not to downplay what you want, but ultimately the amount of fun you have playing your character has more to do with choices and attitude than anything else. I agree that improvements can be made, but I just don't see WotC making the ones you want, since this an old hand problem and they're chasing the new blood in large part. This is where 3rd party products (like Level Up) really shine.

Still worth discussing issues on a board like this, if only to get ideas.

WoTC HAS made some movements in the direction of giving the fighter "more to do" outside of combat, even if they are baby steps (such as the new maneuvers in Tasha's) because it seems that IS what the "new blood" wants.

Certainly not averse to third party solutions to the brought up issues.