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Chris Perkins doesn't use Passive Insight

S'mon

Legend
It happened in my Loudwater game that the PCs captured Zark, the evil dwarf slaver, after he tried to enslave them.

Zark:
"Free me, and I'll show you where the other slavers are hiding out."

PCs:
"OK."

Zark:
"Oh, and give me my crossbow back, so I can help you fight them."

PCs:
"...OK."

The adventure says that Zark seeks to lead them into a trap. Given that the players had every reason to distrust Zark, I was a bit surprised that none of them asked for an Insight check. He has Bluff +8 AIR, so I played him fairly straight, but in the circumstances... really?!

So, they go with Zark to the slaver hideout, give him his crossbow. The battle begins. Zark circles round until well away from the PCs - no reaction. He starts shooting them.

Players:
"WTF?!"

Given that the players did not register any suspicion when Zark asked for his x-bow back, should I have rolled a Bluff check for him vs PC Passive Insight? I don't normally keep a record of PC Passive scores so this would have been fairly obvious.
 

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Balesir

Adventurer
I'm not going to say what you "should" or "shouldn't" do in your game, but if it was me I would have rolled a bluff and let the players assume it was some sort of "reaction" roll, absolutely. I keep a record of useful passive levels, so it wouldn't need to be obvious, at all. I have passive values listed for History, Nature, Dungeoneering and other skills, too, for just those cases where a character might just notice something because of their background or training that is just not obvious enough that I need to describe it to the whole group. Just for example, if all the animal tracks in an area head in one general direction, there is a chance that a trained woodsman or tracker will just notice this, by chance, but if they don't I see no need at all to mention "tracks" as I describe the area, at all.
 

S'mon

Legend
Just for example, if all the animal tracks in an area head in one general direction, there is a chance that a trained woodsman or tracker will just notice this, by chance, but if they don't I see no need at all to mention "tracks" as I describe the area, at all.

In that case I would ask Nature-trained PCs to make a Nature check. I would not tell them *why* unless they made the roll.

I actually have a big aversion to keeping a record of PC skill scores, because I want to run the environment objectively, without reference to PC ability (other than level, in that I'll hopefully start them in a broadly level-appropriate area). I don't want to be adjusting things to fit with the PCs.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
In that case I would ask Nature-trained PCs to make a Nature check. I would not tell them *why* unless they made the roll.
Yeah, I can kind-of see the attraction of a "universal player character agency" system where the players are always the ones who roll the dice, using things like "passive bluff" for NPCs so that they become sort of static challenges as foils for the players to pit themselves against. Having one side in a contest fixed lessens the "swinginess" and having the players always be the "active rolling party" gives a strong feel of player-driven action.

On the other hand, though, the DM is a player, too. There is value to having a world setting that is active and independent of the players - and I think an element of this is the ability to do secret things, things that may surprise the players as well as the characters and increase the level of challenge due to the cunning and proactivity of the non-player creatures and organisations.

On balance, I think I prefer to have NPCs as active, rather than just passive, agents in the world, and I think having them roll for successes unknown to the players is a useful part of that.

I actually have a big aversion to keeping a record of PC skill scores, because I want to run the environment objectively, without reference to PC ability (other than level, in that I'll hopefully start them in a broadly level-appropriate area). I don't want to be adjusting things to fit with the PCs.
Again, I know what you mean; I don't like challenges that are specifically parsed such that the PCs abilities are sufficient to succeed at any of the possible paths designed for the scenario at hand. At the same time, though, the whole "character level" thing is contrived in the extreme. The idea that Epic level monsters only take on Epic level characters, or confine themselves to "Epic level locations" is, viewed from a neutral perspective, an outlandishly unlikely scenario.

The entire game of D&D is, and always has been from the days of "dungeon levels" and "wilderness areas", somewhat contrived in this respect. It is what, to my mind, really defines D&D as a "Gamist" supporting (i.e. about presenting appropriately difficult challenges to be "stepped up to" by the players) rather than a "Simulationist" supporting (i.e. designed to model or "simulate" some particular imaginary world as it is explored) system, at its heart.

In practical terms, therefore, I ignore - or, at least, do not reference - the PC's passive scores as I design, but I do use them during play when the "non-player creatures" have opportunity to enact some active plan of their own of which, at first at least, the players are unaware.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Given that the players did not register any suspicion when Zark asked for his x-bow back, should I have rolled a Bluff check for him vs PC Passive Insight? I don't normally keep a record of PC Passive scores so this would have been fairly obvious.

I would not have.

Like Passive Perception, I'm not too keen on Passive Insight. It's a great big "Hey Mr. DM, protect me from my own stupidity" tool.

There are several things that can happen during an interaction:

1) The DM can just ignore the entire Passive Insight concept. He describes the scene and the players can believe him, or not believe him, but they don't bother to go out of their way to use Active Insight.

2) The DM uses Passive Insight and one or more PCs are successful. I tend to make my first roll on this behind the screen before the conversation even starts, not mid-sentence because it's less obvious what I am doing that way. He describes the scene and the players now know for a fact that the NPC is lying or hiding something or whatever, and the scene definitely goes into the direction .

3) The DM uses Passive Insight and none of the PCs are successful. He describes the scene and the players can believe him, or not believe him, but they don't bother to go out of their way to use Active Insight. Same result as #1.

4) The players wise up and use Active Insight checks at various times in the conversation.

Here's my issue. If the DM uses Passive Insight, there is almost always one or more players with a PC with a high Insight at the table. That means that as a general rule, #2 will occur more often than #3 because most NPCs do not have a huge bluff. In your example (not sure of the level of your PCs), let's say that it is +10 vs. Zark's +8 (61.75%).

If the players do decide to use Active Insight, then the odds are even higher. Not only does the highest Insight at the table player have a 61.75% chance to be successful, the lower Insight players could roll extremely high. Maybe an 80% chance of being successful with multiple players rolling.

So when using both Passive and Active Insight within the same interaction, the odds of not being misled by the NPC are 39.25% * 20% or 7.85%. In other words, the players are going to know that the NPC is lying or hiding something or whatever over 92% of the time (85% if the DM only allows one Active Insight check from one player). It's bad enough that they are going to know this 80% of the time if they bother with their Active Insight checks at all and there's a fair chance that they will suspect it with absolutely no rolls made whatsoever.


So no. I don't think you should have used a Passive Insight check at all to protect your players from themselves. The encounter turned out interesting and the odds of the players being misled in the future as your players start asking for more Active Insight checks will drop quite a bit. Even if they do not do so, they will at least now be more suspicious of NPC motives.


Going back to the earlier discussion, this encounter of yours would have been a lot more interesting if your players would have asked for Active Insight rolls, you rolled those dice behind the screen, and you told a few players that their PCs are convinced that the dwarf is telling the truth, and you told a few different players that their PCs are convinced that the dwarf is lying.

That then leads to a lot more interesting roleplaying session as the players start grilling the dwarf or arguing amongst themselves (in character) than the players asking for Active Insight checks and the vast majority of the time, the DM states that the NPC is lying. zzzzz :yawn:

By using Active Insight checks the way you prefer to do it (i.e. never give a negative result for a terrible roll), by allowing the players to see their own dice rolls, and/or by also allowing Passive Insight checks, the game boils down to chess. The players for the vast majority of encounters know exactly what is going on, so they are almost never misled. That takes a ton of fun out of the roleplaying encounter and the players almost never run into the very encounter that you just described.

The DM then has to resort to other ways to misled the players like the NPCs that they capture have limited or no knowledge and things like that. That too becomes pedestrian and boring. The game world is so much more vibrant and interesting if the PC information tools are not so powerful that the players are almost always aware of what is going on, and the DM doesn't have to go way out of his way to hide things, just to challenge the players.

By having Passive Perception and Passive Insight only relate mundane obvious information to the players and having the DM roll the PC's active checks for the more interesting information and clues, the game becomes one where the players are often not aware of some significant portion of what is going on and the surprise and mystery of the world can be exposed in cool unexpected ways instead of just letting the players know most of what is going on.

It's sometimes fun for a PC to rush across a room and walk into a trap. Not every encounter, not even every encounter day, but the DC to spot most traps should be low enough that most of the PCs have some fair chance to spot them with an Active Perception check, but the Perception Monkey cannot spot them with a Passive Perception checks because the trap is hidden and not obvious. It's boring if the Perception Monkey is allowed to spot the traps every time with a Passive check so the DM bumps up the DC for the traps so high that the rest of the PCs cannot ever spot them (in the case that the Perception Monkey is allowed to spot the interesting stuff with a Passive check).

The exact same thing applies to Passive Insight. It's boring if the info is just handed out to the Insight Monkey with a Passive check.
 
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S'mon

Legend
On the other hand, though, the DM is a player, too. There is value to having a world setting that is active and independent of the players - and I think an element of this is the ability to do secret things, things that may surprise the players as well as the characters and increase the level of challenge due to the cunning and proactivity of the non-player creatures and organisations.

On balance, I think I prefer to have NPCs as active, rather than just passive, agents in the world, and I think having them roll for successes unknown to the players is a useful part of that.

I don't think any of my players would think my NPCs were passive - they're always plotting! :devil: One reason I try for a very clear direct GMing style is that there's so much going on that otherwise it would be indecipherable to the average player, and would just seem like a big confusing mess.

I use Passive Perception a fair bit, but only to reduce swinginess - so no problem asking "What's your Passive Per?" - usually if it's too low the reason swiftly becomes clear as there's an immediate ambush.
 

Viking Bastard

Adventurer
For me, passive checks seem rather arbitrary. I like them in theory, but since I prepare my games only in very broad terms and tend to decide DCs on the go, the result will invariably end up being whatever I'd most like to see happen.

It's not that I intend it to be so—I don't mean to—but whenever I look back at a game, I cannot deny that it is so.

So I tend to run things closer to S'mon. It seems more fair.
 

S'mon

Legend
The idea that Epic level monsters only take on Epic level characters, or confine themselves to "Epic level locations" is, viewed from a neutral perspective, an outlandishly unlikely scenario.

I assume they don't - vast numbers of Heroic Tier NPCs get chomped on by the Epic Tier monsters IMCs - offstage. :lol:

And there's nothing to stop my level 7 Wilderlands PCs seeking out the EL 16+ Dead Queen's Valley, or the Cryptic Citadel of the Invincible Overlord, or whatever. But I do take it that (a) Epic Tier threats are fairly rare on a global scale, they typically have to be sought out and (b) the PCs have at least a chance to locate adventures of suitable level, with a bit of scouting & smarts.

I see the environment threat level as a bit like a sine wave - the PCs typically start out in a low threat area, at the bottom of the curve, but can travel to a higher threat area, going up the curve. The bottom of the curve represents the low Heroic tier (typical borderland areas with goblins, say), typically the top of the curve is mid or high Paragon (eg Drow cities - or major human cities, if attacked - plus the toughest 'normal' monster lairs, etc). There are also spikes of Epic tier threat in the mortal world, but these are much rarer and harder to locate. The lair of Grendel and his Dam would be towards the top of the 'normal' threat curve in mid/high Paragon, while the lair of the elder red dragon Beowulf faced in his final battle would be an Epic 'spike'.
 

S'mon

Legend
Here's my issue. If the DM uses Passive Insight, there is almost always one or more players with a PC with a high Insight at the table. That means that as a general rule, #2 will occur more often than #3 because most NPCs do not have a huge bluff. In your example (not sure of the level of your PCs), let's say that it is +10 vs. Zark's +8 (61.75%).

1st level PCs, very unlikely any of them had Passive Insight 18 or higher, but I couldn't swear to it. The 4 of them marched into the trap, with Zark aiding the bandit-slavers it was something like an EL 7 encounter for 4 PCs - even with me halving monster hp as usual I was very surprised they somehow pulled through! If they hadn't it would have been my 2nd TPK in 3 sessions, so I didn't mind, though. :)
 

S'mon

Legend
The DM then has to resort to other ways to misled the players like the NPCs that they capture have limited or no knowledge and things like that. That too becomes pedestrian and boring. The game world is so much more vibrant and interesting if the PC information tools are not so powerful that the players are almost always aware of what is going on, and the DM doesn't have to go way out of his way to hide things, just to challenge the players.

By having Passive Perception and Passive Insight only relate mundane obvious information to the players and having the DM roll the PC's active checks for the more interesting information and clues, the game becomes one where the players are often not aware of some significant portion of what is going on and the surprise and mystery of the world can be exposed in cool unexpected ways instead of just letting the players know most of what is going on.

I disagree about the value of misdirection. IME a lot of players spend their time in a fug of confusion with no idea what is going on, even when the DM is trying to lay it all out as clearly as possible. And personally I hate 'smoke & mirrors' and 'pixel bitching' DM styles; solving mysterious mysteries isn't what I play for. I have to think hard at work as an academic lawyer, puzzling stuff out is not what I want to do in play. What interests me as player & DM is decision-making - the PCs understand the situation, what will they do about it? I dislike linear play, I am very interested in choices made between several valid options, eg which side do we support in a civil war. That kind of choice requires information. Occasionally there may be secrets - the heroic usurper is actually a demon lord, say - which can mislead even players who are paying attention - but those should be the rare exception.
 

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