Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

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Ryujin

Adventurer
As an example, from National Public Radio just this morning:

"As the military response to the Islamic State heats up, an ideological front is opening against the group. They're using social media to explain why ISIS' interpretation of the Koran is wrong."

Listen to the entire piece here:

http://www.npr.org/2015/10/13/448182609/religious-scholars-use-social-media-to-counter-isis-interpretation-of-koran
You know the people who are lumping Muslims together don't listen to NPR ;)
 

Sadras

Explorer
@goldomark sadly I had a full reply, but it got lost in the submission. I will answer back when I have time available.

But I will address one of your's and @Ryujin's comments:

As @Ryujin said, there are lots of Imams and Muslims who spoke on such matters. But as you said to him, there aren't enough for you. There will never be enough for you.
Very dramatic.

You know the people who are lumping Muslims together don't listen to NPR ;)
The Muslims of Turkey need to acknowledge the Armenian Persecution and make reparations. The Muslims of Egypt need to acknowledge the injustices against the Copts and make reparations. The Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh need to acknowledge their atrocities against the Hindu and Shieks and make reparations...list goes on, including the 200 or so girls that were kidnapped in Nigeria. At least the memes with the ridiculous Michelle Obama were funny.

This is very much similar to how South Africa acknowledged the atrocities under the Apartheid Regime, established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and began making reparations, as in post Nazi Germany...etc.

Feel free to keep on enjoying your handful of Imams on radio, youtube and Mosque while the atrocities continue.

I felt inspired again so I answered a few more for you @goldomark

So, if you compare Europe to Palestine, is it because you believe Muslims are organized in the colonisation of Europe, like Jews were organized in the colonization of Palestine? ....(snip)....So, if it is just a bit rational, that means you believe Muslims are taking over Europe just a bit, right?
It is documented that not all Jews were Zionist, yet Zionism succeeded and now we have Israel, as of course not all Muslims actively pursue the colonization of Europe where as others wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate.

What is known is that far more Muslims are emigrating to Europe than Europeans leaving for the Middle East.

Unlike you, I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories.
Okay

I'm not sure what is that "entire European Governments" you are talking about.... (snip)
European Union Ministers of Justice, Ministers of Interior and Foreign Affairs have approved a creation in Africa and Middle East of special camps for immigrants who inundated Europe. The decision was taken in Luxemburg after the “revolt” of Eastern European countries; Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Latvia declined to comply with imposed by Brussels 66,000 persons´ quotas on immigrants, qualifying them as “illegal”. Prague threatened to start a law suit in the European Court, Hungary on Tuesday closed its border with Serbia and approved a law which punishes illegal border crossing with jail or deportation. Berlin was sharply criticized for its unilateral decision of opening Germany´s borders to immigrants, and Germany´s neighbors: Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, and Slovenia unilaterally closed borders with Germany.

As for manipulating immigration policies to foster fear, that is rather colorful.
I don't believe I insinuated that.

What else was decided at ShadowCon?
The details may not yet be made available to the public.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Moderator
Staff member
The Muslims of Turkey need to acknowledge the Armenian Persecution and make reparations. The Muslims of Egypt need to acknowledge the injustices against the Copts and make reparations. The Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh need to acknowledge their atrocities against the Hindu and Shieks and make reparations...list goes on, including the 200 or so girls that were kidnapped in Nigeria. At least the memes with the ridiculous Michelle Obama were funny.

This is very much similar to how South Africa acknowledged the atrocities under the Apartheid Regime, established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and began making reparations, as in post Nazi Germany...etc.

Feel free to keep on enjoying your handful of Imams on radio, youtube and Mosque while the atrocities continue.
There is not a nation over 100 years old nor major faith on the face of the earth without blood on their hands, and most don't care to mention them. Apologies have been rare, and reparations rarer still.
 
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Sadras

Explorer
There is not a nation over 100 years old nor major faith on the face of the earth without blood on their hands, and most don't care to mention them. Apologies have been rare, and reparations rarer still.
True, but this misconception and line of propaganda that this religion's history is and has always been a religion of peace needs to be corrected. As I said upthread, the religion is 1200-1400 years of age - and we all know about Christianity's history at that age.
 
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Ryujin

Adventurer
The Muslims of Turkey need to acknowledge the Armenian Persecution and make reparations. The Muslims of Egypt need to acknowledge the injustices against the Copts and make reparations. The Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh need to acknowledge their atrocities against the Hindu and Shieks and make reparations...list goes on, including the 200 or so girls that were kidnapped in Nigeria. At least the memes with the ridiculous Michelle Obama were funny.

This is very much similar to how South Africa acknowledged the atrocities under the Apartheid Regime, established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and began making reparations, as in post Nazi Germany...etc.

Feel free to keep on enjoying your handful of Imams on radio, youtube and Mosque while the atrocities continue.
A ten second search turned this up.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkish-prime-minister-offers-condolences-to-armenians-for-genocide/5379069
 

Sadras

Explorer

I admit this is a major first step for Turkey. Interestingly that article (and it's link) paints Turkey and USA in a much worse light - given Obama/USA's treatment of the entire affair and the Syrian scandal which occurred a month before.

Wiki does mention the below quote re the same Prime Minister

In 2007, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan issued a circular that calls the government institutions to use the phrase "Events of 1915" (in Turkish, 1915 Olayları) instead of the phrase "so-called Armenian genocide" (in Turkish, sözde Ermeni soykırımı).
It doesn't appear that Turkey has not yet recognised it as a Genocide. It is like saying Germany killed a few Jews in the war along with some Homosexuals, Christians and Romani and we are sorry but we need to forgive and forget the past and not hold grudges and move forward. That is as per your link "a repackaging" of the events.
That is not an acceptance of a Genocide - that is political pandering to the EU. Turkey is still very much a Genocide Denier (and we all know what the worldview is on Holocaust Deniers) and sadly Turkey has USA's backing.

These links might further help illuminate the matter.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/15/erdogan-dismisses-european-armenia-genocide-vote.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/24/for-turks-acknowledging-an-armenian-genocide-undermines-national-identity.html
 
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Ryujin

Adventurer
I admit this is a major first step for Turkey. Interestingly that article (and it's link) paints Turkey and USA in a much worse light - given Obama/USA's treatment of the entire affair and the Syrian scandal which occurred a month before.

Wiki does mention the below quote re the same Prime Minister

It doesn't appear that Turkey has yet recognised it as a Genocide. It is like saying Germany killed a few Jews in the war along with some Homosexuals, Christians and Romani and we are sorry but we need to forgive and forget the past and not hold grudges and move forward. That is as per your link "a repackaging" of the events.
That is not an acceptance of a Genocide - that is political pandering to the EU. Turkey is still very much a Genocide Denier (and we all know what the worldview is on Holocaust Deniers) and sadly Turkey has USA's backing.

These links might further help illuminate the matter.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/15/erdogan-dismisses-european-armenia-genocide-vote.html

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/24/for-turks-acknowledging-an-armenian-genocide-undermines-national-identity.html
Well, technically speaking asking the current government of Turkey to apologize for the Armenian Genocide is sort of like asking the former Soviet Union to apologize to families of people executed by the Romanov dynasty. The Sultanate was abolished and replaced by a republic in 1922. Admittedly there is precedent for such and yes, there must at the very least be a full admission of events, but there is a disconnect. In Germany, people elected a government that performed the genocide. The Ottoman Empire was essentially a Caliphate.
 

Kramodlog

Adventurer
Very dramatic.
*Sound of omnious organ music in the background*

It is documented that not all Jews were Zionist, yet Zionism succeeded and now we have Israel, as of course not all Muslims actively pursue the colonization of Europe where as others wish to establish an Islamic Caliphate.
Who are those Muslims who actively persue the colonization of Europe? Any organization similar to the WZO out there? What is the percentage of refugees and migrants that are there to colonize Europe?

What is known is that far more Muslims are emigrating to Europe than Europeans leaving for the Middle East.
I love this sort of argument. Its a "I don't mean to imply anything, even if I imply something" type of argument.

I'm reminded me of the Yellow Peril fears of the nineteen century.

European Union Ministers of Justice, Ministers of Interior and Foreign Affairs have approved a creation in Africa and Middle East of special camps for immigrants who inundated Europe. The decision was taken in Luxemburg after the “revolt” of Eastern European countries; Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Latvia declined to comply with imposed by Brussels 66,000 persons´ quotas on immigrants, qualifying them as “illegal”. Prague threatened to start a law suit in the European Court, Hungary on Tuesday closed its border with Serbia and approved a law which punishes illegal border crossing with jail or deportation. Berlin was sharply criticized for its unilateral decision of opening Germany´s borders to immigrants, and Germany´s neighbors: Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, and Slovenia unilaterally closed borders with Germany.
So, if Eastern European countries have revolted, it isn't the entire European governements, as you said, right? And this doesn't demonstrate that it isn't politicians betting on the islamophobia or plain old xenophobia of some of their voters to score points.

I don't believe I insinuated that.
Yup:
Do you think that entire European Governments exaggerate the influence of Islam in their countries by altering the immigration policies? You do know it is really in an attempt to preserve their culture and heritage.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?466530-Christian-Persecution-vs-Persecuted-Christians/page26#ixzz3oXJhjyqZ
You say its "an attempt to preserve their culture and heritage". Seems like you're saying the manipulation of immigration policies is done to scare Europeans so they would approve of protective mesures.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
There's far more immigration to North America from China than there is emigration from North America to China. Careful now! It looks like the Buddists are colonizing Canada! ;)
 

Sadras

Explorer
Well, technically speaking asking the current government of Turkey to apologize for the Armenian Genocide is sort of like asking the former Soviet Union to apologize to families of people executed by the Romanov dynasty. The Sultanate was abolished and replaced by a republic in 1922. Admittedly there is precedent for such and yes, there must at the very least be a full admission of events, but there is a disconnect. In Germany, people elected a government that performed the genocide. The Ottoman Empire was essentially a Caliphate.
Yes BUT, they don't even acknowledge it as a Genocide nevermind apologise or make reparations. Very much a white-washing of Islamic history.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
Yes BUT, they don't even acknowledge it as a Genocide nevermind apologise or make reparations. Very much a white-washing of Islamic history.
Yes, that would be why I very specifically stated, "...there must at the very least be a full admission of events." ;)

"Islamic history", or "history"? I would say the latter. After all, do we refer to the systemic subjugation of Jews in Europe as "Christian History", or just "history"? This isn't hair splitting but rather pointing out a specific inequity in phrasing, that is aimed at supporting a premise.
 

Sadras

Explorer
*Sound of omnious organ music in the background*
Organ music is always fun.

Who are those Muslims who actively persue the colonization of Europe?
They're probably all related to the same 19 muslims that flew the planes into the WTC buildings and Pentagon. Careful now, if you don't believe the official story you become a conspiracy theorist.

Any organization similar to the WZO out there?
Not that I'm aware of.

What is the percentage of refugees and migrants that are there to colonize Europe?
Well like the USA government's intelligence prior 9-11, I have no knowledge of it.

So, if Eastern European countries have revolted, it isn't the entire European governements, as you said, right?
What is your definition of entire European Governments? I didn't state the EU. The government of Hungary, Austria...etc

And this doesn't demonstrate that it isn't politicians betting on the islamophobia or plain old xenophobia of some of their voters to score points.
You are welcome to that opinion, but I do believe there are people in power who genuinely push a policy to protect their culture and heritage.

Yup: You say its "an attempt to preserve their culture and heritage". Seems like you're saying the manipulation of immigration policies is done to scare Europeans so they would approve of protective mesures.
No it doesn't. Let me try this another way.
Governments of Western Countries, identify the changes that an influx of a muslim population might bring about in their country, and therefore change immigration policies.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yes BUT, they don't even acknowledge it as a Genocide nevermind apologise or make reparations. Very much a white-washing of Islamic history.
Yes, well, give them time.

It sometimes takes the Catholic Church *hundreds of years* to apologize for some of their wrongdoings. Pope John Paul II only got around to admitting the church was wrong and apologized to Galileo in 1992. He also apologized....

for Catholic Involvement in the African slave trade in 1993.

for the religious wars and burning people at the stake after the Protestant Reformation in 1995

for the 1204 Crusader attack and sacking of Constantinople, the apology came in 2001 - 800 years after the fact.

And this was all John Paul II. It took an exceptional man to make this happen.

It isn't like apologies are ever timely.
 

Sadras

Explorer
Yes, that would be why I very specifically stated, "...there must at the very least be a full admission of events."
Right, I missed that line.

"Islamic history", or "history"? I would say the latter. After all, do we refer to the systemic subjugation of Jews in Europe as "Christian History", or just "history"? This isn't hair splitting but rather pointing out a specific inequity in phrasing, that is aimed at supporting a premise.
Islamic. I'm referring to situations where Islam played (in some still plays) a major role in the policies utilised and actions of the government or people at the time against Non-Muslims. I know they have their own in-fighting but I was not addressing that part of the discussion with regards to Islamophobia with @goldomark.
 
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Sadras

Explorer
Wow, you will stretch and pick at anything to argue with me. I'm flattered. LOL. Where did you get so many straws from?

The only reference I made to Buddhism, and it was only after you brought it up, was that it didn't have the same views on apostacy as Islam does. I made no personal assumption on whether it is a religion of peace, or how I felt about what happened to the muslims of Myanmar and Sri Lanka. And didn't even mention the Dalai Lama.
However all these kind of actions do not surprise me, and neither should they anyone, as the number of muslims begin to increases in the areas where Islam is a minority. What we are witnessing is human nature.
 
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Kramodlog

Adventurer
Organ music is always fun.
This is why I ask cute women to play with my organ.

They're probably all related to the same 19 muslims that flew the planes into the WTC buildings and Pentagon. Careful now, if you don't believe the official story you become a conspiracy theorist.
So, Al Qaeda is now an organisation that is trying to colonize Europe?

Not that I'm aware of.
Not looking good for the organized colonization of Europe by Muslims.

Well like the USA government's intelligence prior 9-11, I have no knowledge of it.
So, your basing your statement on what you feel, fear in this instance, but not facts?

What is your definition of entire European Governments?
That would mean all European governments, as the word "entire" would lead us to believe.

You are welcome to that opinion, but I do believe there are people in power who genuinely push a policy to protect their culture and heritage.
But that doesn't mean it is a rational policy.

Governments of Western Countries, identify the changes that an influx of a muslim population might bring about in their country, and therefore change immigration policies.
"Might". So, it doesn't mean it is happening or will. It is the fear of a possibility, of a slippery slope. Not something that is rational or factual. It is base on islamophobia.

The Guardian as an interesting article and poll about people's perception of Muslims and Christians in their countries. Bascially, people overestimate the number of Muslims in their country (not a stretch to think they exagerate influence too) and underestimate the number of Christians. Interesting read. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/29/todays-key-fact-you-are-probably-wrong-about-almost-everything?CMP=fb_gu

Index-Ignorance-Musulmans.png
 
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