Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

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Sadras

Legend
Thanks all.

However, even though the ACLU has done just that, discovery has been less fruitful than expected because the judges believe the executive branch's claims for withholding evidence in the name of "national security".

And this is where the case breaks down. Much can be hidden with this alleged "in the interest of national security" line.
I recall seeing this in the short-lived series The Firm and Boston Legal.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

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And this is where the case breaks down. Much can be hidden with this alleged "in the interest of national security" line.
I recall seeing this in the short-lived series The Firm and Boston Legal.
Well...yes and no.

Yes, it does shut down a case pretty quickly. However, a (competent) judge isn't going to just take the Feds' word for it. Instead, there will be an "in camera" review of proof supporting the claim of national security.

Of course, the Feds might refuse, but that just turbocharges the appeals process.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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For the bulk data collection program the point is largely moot. Congress, recognizing it had a turkey on its hands, decided to (metaphorically) butcher it. The program is set to end in December anyway.

But, specifically, just this month:

"Judge Leon specifically ordered the N.S.A. to stop collecting phone records for one customer of Verizon: a lawyer in California and his law firm. But he did so, he wrote, knowing that the Justice Department had said that blocking the collection of just one person’s records might require shutting down the entire program because it would be technically difficult to screen him out."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/10/u...w-to-nsa-phone-surveillance-program.html?_r=0
That is some fine legal judo right there.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I has started a long reply, where I rebutted your points with citations, but when I got here, I realized that I didn't need to keep going -- you lost your own argument.

There is a process, and- truncated & secret though it is- all publicly available evidence shows that it has been followed. Now, the ACLU and Center for Constitutional Rights have filed several cases challenging the nature of those procedures. So far, I believe they have lost each case: the last I know of were Al-Aulaqi v. Panetta- dismissed and not appealed in 2014- and ACLU et al. v. CIA et al., currently awaiting an appeal of dismissal.
You mean the case where it was determined likely by the judge that the US had violated Alwaki's 5th Amendment rights, but had to dismiss the case because there's "no available remedy under U.S. law for this claim" and because the government managed to stonewall long enough that the court didn't have enough evidence to continue? (the second case is about a FOIA request for the details of the drone targeting program -- specifically how US and international laws are being followed in the use of the assassination program -- and it's still very much alive and ongoing with the ACLU winning a major battle last year and having to again appeal on the same grounds they won on before.)

Yeah, I'll just wait here for the apology.

I skipped the rest because your own cite was a slam dunk for my point.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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Yep- keep waiting.


A summary of the dismissal of the 5th amendment concerns can be found here:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/summary-fridays-decision-al-aulaqi-v-panetta

Judge Collyer similarly dismisses the defendants’ Fifth Amendment due process claims on behalf of Adulrahman al-Aulaqi and Khan because “[m]ere negligence does not give rise to a constitutional deprivation” of due process, and Abdulrahman and Khan “were not targeted and their deaths were unanticipated.” However, because plaintiffs allege that Anwar al-Aulaqi was intentionally targeted and killed by defendants, the court finds that the plaintiffs’ complaint “states a ‘plausible’ procedural and substantive due process claim on behalf of Anwar al-Aulaqi.”

A plausible claim is not enough to save the plaintiffs’ case, however. Judge Collyer finds that even if the government violated Anwar al-Aulaqi’s due process rights, there is “no available remedy under U.S. law for this claim.” No court has found, nor even discussed, whether Bivens remedies are available for deprivation of life without due process based on the overseas killing by U.S. officials of a U.S. citizen considered to be an enemy combatant. In analogous due process-based Bivens actions for military detention and alleged abuse of U.S. citizens, the court points out that circuit courts, including the D.C. Circuit in Doe v. Rumsfeld, “have decided that special factors—including separation of powers, national security, and the risk of interfering with military decisions—preclude the extension of a Bivens remedy to such cases.” Because Congress in the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force granted the president the power to “use necessary and appropriate military force against al-Qa’ida and affiliated forces,” the court “hesitate before implying a Bivens claim” challenging the executive branch’s exercise of that authority. The U.S. government has determined that Anwar al-Aulaqi was a member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and a threat to U.S. national security and the court will not challenge that assessment.


She also stated:

...she would have denied the motion to dismiss “[w]ere the Court not able to cobble together enough judicially-noticeable facts from various records.”

To clarify:

1) likely =/= plausible. It also doesn't mean "highly probable" or "proven".
2) the judge was unwilling to even consider applying an analogous remedy because of certain laws
3) the judge found other reasons to dismiss the claim

If the judge HAD found that a violation was "highly probable" or "proven"- AND not found other grounds for dismissal- it is possible that the court would have applied a Bivens standard and let the case proceed up the appellate channels.

As for the other case, an appeals of dismissal is not a victory, but an attempt to overturn a loss, so my statement stands.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you stated is as, "there is no *moral* justification for the US to be targeting Americans with drone strikes," we probably would note that morals are not universal, but otherwise not argue with you much. Ultimately, that would be a personal opinion.

So long as you leave it as possibly concerning *legal* justification, well, then there's grounds for debate.

I am not sure where you get the idea that the key differentiator is citizenship, though.

It was intentional, though. I don't see bad laws as a justification for that sort of thing, so in my view there is just plain no justification for the murder of Americans by the government.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Let us look at two cases:

1) NSA mass data collections - this was a secret program, and it tool Edward Snowden to make us aware of it. Once it was made public, the ACLU was all over it, taking it to court. But, very difficult to allege harm if you don't know it is happening, yes.

2) Our drone-killed American citizen terrorist - alleging specific harm here is pretty obvious, as a man is dead. That's pretty specific and harmful. The real problem is less alleging harm as it is identifying which piece of law is actually broken here. Is it the Foreign Intelligence Services Act (of 1978, that created the classified FISA court that we suspect might have presided over the surveillance that yielded the information that led to his being called an "enemy combatant")? Is it the Patriot Act (which extended some powers of the FISA court)? Or, is it something else entirely? You have to be able to point at the law that's problematic.

You also have to have legal standing. What harm was done to me by the drone strike against him?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
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You also have to have legal standing. What harm was done to me by the drone strike against him?

Quite true. You and I were not materially harmed, so we could not bring the case in our own names. But clearly *someone* was harmed - a person was harmed enough to have died.

The case can be brought in the name of his estate. Or, relatives that could consider his death a loss could bring it in their own names.
 

Umbran

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It was intentional, though. I don't see bad laws as a justification for that sort of thing, so in my view there is just plain no justification for the murder of Americans by the government.

Ah, well, we are a nation of the rule of law, not the rule of what Maxperson thinks is right.

More to the point, though - your statement assumes a conclusion. There is no justification for the "murder" of Americans... "Murder" is something legally defined. As soon as you phrase it that way, you're including law.
 

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