Cityscape
- Thread starter Whizbang Dustyboots
- Start date
I can't compare Cityscape to Cityworks as I do not possess the latter, but I can compare it to the other "environmental" books. On a scale of 1-10, it's a 3. Compared to them, I thought Cityscape sucked badly. It was a bunch of rhetoric with huge gaps inbetween. I finished reading a chapter and always found myself saying,"That's it? There could've been some more, what gives? Oh, that's right, the page count is only 160...". It felt as if the information was tightly packed, but not like a can of sardines, more like sticking a turkey through a Cheerio.
And you really can't even buy the book for "crunch" value if that's all you want or would like to buy it for since the other half is horrible. Because there's only mere sprinkling of them in the book. A handful of feats, monsters, and spells and a dash of PrC is all there is. The other environment books, hands down, were way better than Cityscape and I don't understand exactly why Cityscape wasn't modeled after them?
Cityscape was more of a "We suggest you do" rather than a ""How to do" book, unfortunately.
Then again, what else can you expect from WotC? Their books in the past couple of years have been hits and misses.
And you really can't even buy the book for "crunch" value if that's all you want or would like to buy it for since the other half is horrible. Because there's only mere sprinkling of them in the book. A handful of feats, monsters, and spells and a dash of PrC is all there is. The other environment books, hands down, were way better than Cityscape and I don't understand exactly why Cityscape wasn't modeled after them?
Cityscape was more of a "We suggest you do" rather than a ""How to do" book, unfortunately.
Then again, what else can you expect from WotC? Their books in the past couple of years have been hits and misses.
The book is short on crunch to be sure. The feats section is not so good. There's City Magic, which somehow allows a spell to inflict half of its damage as untyped, which not only doesn't make sense from the description, but we've got feats that do this already. We also get Invisible Spell, which is certainly nastier than its +0 level metamagic increase indicates.
Wik
First Post
I'm interested in the product for a few reasons:
1) It's in the environment series, which has been my FAVOURITE series of wotc so far.
2) It's detailing the cities, and a lot of the stuff about cities wotc has done (the city-stuff from Races of Destiny, not counting "city spells") is awesome.
3) Ari Marmell wrote a good chunk of it, and I've mostly liked his stuff.
4) The art looks damned fine.
I flipped through it, and it looked great. Only wish I had cash on me right now.
1) It's in the environment series, which has been my FAVOURITE series of wotc so far.
2) It's detailing the cities, and a lot of the stuff about cities wotc has done (the city-stuff from Races of Destiny, not counting "city spells") is awesome.
3) Ari Marmell wrote a good chunk of it, and I've mostly liked his stuff.
4) The art looks damned fine.
I flipped through it, and it looked great. Only wish I had cash on me right now.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Well, there have been a lot of thoughts and comments, positive and negative, posted about Cityscape on this and other boards. I’ve long since accepted that nothing I work on (or anyone else works on, for that matter 
) is going to be loved by everyone, so I’m not going to try to argue anyone’s points or change anyone’s mind. What I would like to do is talk for a moment about the thinking behind the book. Nothing I might say is going to make people who dislike the book suddenly like it, or vice-versa, but I would like to offer some insight into what C.A. and I were thinking when we were working on Cityscape.
Some people have commented that it’s not quite like the previous Environment books. That’s true; it’s not. As far as C.A. and I were concerned, it couldn’t be. An urban campaign, and the urban environment, have traits and particulars and their own challenges that other environments don’t have to deal with.
Adventuring in an urban setting requires changes to the campaign that the others do not. Let’s say you’re running a desert campaign. You’re going to be dealing with new dangers, like heat and sandstorms; new spells; new monsters; new cultures; even new gods. But the types of adventures you run and stories you tell don’t necessarily deviate from those you would find in a more traditional setting. You can still run your favored combination of dungeon crawls, wilderness exploration, in-city politics, etc. In a desert sourcebook, the writers don’t have to give advice on how to run a desert campaign; it’s enough that they provide you the mechanical tools to do so.
The thing is, that’s just not the case in a city. Sure, you can still run dungeon (sewer?) crawls and monster hunts. But trying to run a city-based adventure, or campaign, comes with its own requirements that cannot just be ignored. Run long-term in a city, and you will have to deal with the government, with trade and economics, with guilds and crime, with noble families and social castes. A DM who knows how to run a traditional adventure probably also knows how to run a desert or tundra adventure, but does he necessarily know how to run an encounter with the city’s magistrates when the PCs are arrested for bearing weapons in the town square? Does he know how the location and purpose of a city impact the demographics of its inhabitants? Would it even occur to him that a war a thousand miles away might still impact the city, or that the PCs might run into trouble with the law just for casting spells in public?
C.A. and I felt strongly that a DM who has never before run an urban campaign, or given any serious thought to things like types of government and the repercussions of war, should be able to pick up Cityscape, read through it, and then feel comfortable running exactly that. Yes, it’s got far more advice and far more suggestions than prior environment books. I know that disappoints some people; I’m sorry that’s the case, as I really do want to make as many folks happy as possible, but I won’t apologize for the decision to design the book that way. I still think it was the best way to go, and I’d do it again tomorrow.
(That said, I do wish there had been room for some more mechanics. We had a few nifty things in there that got cut.)
Ultimately, if you think of Cityscape as much as a “Heroes of...” book as it is an Environment book, you might be better prepared for what’s inside, or at least more understanding of why we did as we did.
) is going to be loved by everyone, so I’m not going to try to argue anyone’s points or change anyone’s mind. What I would like to do is talk for a moment about the thinking behind the book. Nothing I might say is going to make people who dislike the book suddenly like it, or vice-versa, but I would like to offer some insight into what C.A. and I were thinking when we were working on Cityscape.Some people have commented that it’s not quite like the previous Environment books. That’s true; it’s not. As far as C.A. and I were concerned, it couldn’t be. An urban campaign, and the urban environment, have traits and particulars and their own challenges that other environments don’t have to deal with.
Adventuring in an urban setting requires changes to the campaign that the others do not. Let’s say you’re running a desert campaign. You’re going to be dealing with new dangers, like heat and sandstorms; new spells; new monsters; new cultures; even new gods. But the types of adventures you run and stories you tell don’t necessarily deviate from those you would find in a more traditional setting. You can still run your favored combination of dungeon crawls, wilderness exploration, in-city politics, etc. In a desert sourcebook, the writers don’t have to give advice on how to run a desert campaign; it’s enough that they provide you the mechanical tools to do so.
The thing is, that’s just not the case in a city. Sure, you can still run dungeon (sewer?) crawls and monster hunts. But trying to run a city-based adventure, or campaign, comes with its own requirements that cannot just be ignored. Run long-term in a city, and you will have to deal with the government, with trade and economics, with guilds and crime, with noble families and social castes. A DM who knows how to run a traditional adventure probably also knows how to run a desert or tundra adventure, but does he necessarily know how to run an encounter with the city’s magistrates when the PCs are arrested for bearing weapons in the town square? Does he know how the location and purpose of a city impact the demographics of its inhabitants? Would it even occur to him that a war a thousand miles away might still impact the city, or that the PCs might run into trouble with the law just for casting spells in public?
C.A. and I felt strongly that a DM who has never before run an urban campaign, or given any serious thought to things like types of government and the repercussions of war, should be able to pick up Cityscape, read through it, and then feel comfortable running exactly that. Yes, it’s got far more advice and far more suggestions than prior environment books. I know that disappoints some people; I’m sorry that’s the case, as I really do want to make as many folks happy as possible, but I won’t apologize for the decision to design the book that way. I still think it was the best way to go, and I’d do it again tomorrow.
(That said, I do wish there had been room for some more mechanics. We had a few nifty things in there that got cut.)
Ultimately, if you think of Cityscape as much as a “Heroes of...” book as it is an Environment book, you might be better prepared for what’s inside, or at least more understanding of why we did as we did.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
It seems that there isn't much crunch in this book. To me, that's a good thing - I am annoyed by excessive amount of crunch.
So how good are the non-crunch bits?
So how good are the non-crunch bits?
Jürgen Hubert said:
Well, analyzing fluff is more subjective than analyzing crunch, but some folks have already made a good start. Here's my two cents.
My biggest criticism of the book isn't really related to the fluff/crunch false dichotomy. It's that the material that's in the book is more geared around city-building than city-adventuring. Many city-dwellers in real life only have a good idea of how to get to their home, their job, and their grocery store, so should I reallly expect my players to take in the minutae of how an imaginary city breaks down by district? That's like expecting them to remember entire dungeon layouts in their head. It's just not that pragmatic or even necessary. In Cityscape, when things are detailed, they're usually described in terms of their civic function, not their practical function as something a DM can drop into an adventure. Big flaw IMO.
And beyond that, 160 pages just doesn't stretch that far. WotC really ought to consider going back to publishing these smaller books in softcover format, and reserve hardcovers for those with a minimum page count of 200.
Li Shenron
Legend
Mouseferatu, you have just described the reasons why I have been looking forward to Cityscape, while I haven't bought any of the previous environmental books (not they seemed bad, just not so useful).
But Felon has a good point indeed. How much did you focus on BUILDING the town and how much on RUNNING the town around the characters? Because it's true that knowing where exactly the temple is located or how much it costs to build one is nowhere near the usefulness of knowing what can you do with a temple in town rather than when there isn't one.
I remember that Stronghold Builder's Guidebook made IMHO the mistake of concentrating too much on room costs & layout, rather than helping you think about how the presence of a specific type of room is going to be useful at all for the story.
But Felon has a good point indeed. How much did you focus on BUILDING the town and how much on RUNNING the town around the characters? Because it's true that knowing where exactly the temple is located or how much it costs to build one is nowhere near the usefulness of knowing what can you do with a temple in town rather than when there isn't one.
I remember that Stronghold Builder's Guidebook made IMHO the mistake of concentrating too much on room costs & layout, rather than helping you think about how the presence of a specific type of room is going to be useful at all for the story.
Psion
Adventurer
Mouseferatu said:(That said, I do wish there had been room for some more mechanics. We had a few nifty things in there that got cut.)
Web Enhancement?
"Heroes of"?
Oh, like Heroes of Horror (I don't have heroes of battle, so the first Heroes of books I thought of were the old Heroes of Legend/Heroes of Tomorrow/Heroes now generic background generation stuff.)
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