Desdichado
Hero
That's not science fiction, that's the Loony Toons. Wile E. Coyote did this I don't know how many times.Henry said:
Clarke's principle on its head
- Thread starter Dogbrain
- Start date
Magic needs to be consistent and reliable if you want to have characters that rely on magic (whether it's spells, items, supernatural abilities, or some other form of magic) in your game, which almost inevitably makes magic less mysterious.
Think about it from a player's perspective (rather than a DM's). If magic's not consistent, then the game is unfair; magic is working radically differently for NPCs or monsters than it is for PCs, or you never know what you're going to get when you cast a spell. If magic's not reliable, then it's probably not worth using, and certainly shouldn't be a character's primary option.
Think about it from a player's perspective (rather than a DM's). If magic's not consistent, then the game is unfair; magic is working radically differently for NPCs or monsters than it is for PCs, or you never know what you're going to get when you cast a spell. If magic's not reliable, then it's probably not worth using, and certainly shouldn't be a character's primary option.
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Goobermunch
Explorer
drothgery said:
I'm not sure I agree with that. The magic system in Mage: The Ascension was neither predictable nor reliable. It was also one of the best magic systems I've ever used!
--G
Desdichado
Hero
Well, that depends on the game, though, doesn't it? D&D is traditionally about dungeoneering for profit, in which case an unreliable magic system was often as much a liability as an asset.Goobermunch said:
Now granted, I don't play that way; I break out in a rash at the mere mention of a traditional dungeon crawl for XP and treasure. But the design principles of D&D are patently against an unreliable magic system.
So yeah, D&D can certainly be used for a more roleplaying intensive type of game than the designers obviously really intended, but that means that a few aspects of the rules sit a bit uncomfortably. Hence the thread.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
FireLance said:
Windows is, apparently, sufficiently advanced!I think Dogbrain makes an excellent point, but it's not always an issue. D&D's magic system works much better as a game, inasmuch as it's relatively hard to break the rules; that's because everything is clearly defined and works consistently. Mage: the Ascension's magic system is very easy to break: the rules are defined only in the broadest possible terms.
The flip side of that is that Mage's magic system lends itself to a great deal of flavor, and magic is powerful, mysterious, mystical, and dangerous. While it's definitely possible to use D&D's magic with a lot of flavor, it's more work on the GM's and players' part to do so.
For example, its very easy to imagine the differences between the hashish-fueled prophetic visions of a Cult of Ecstasy mage, and the mad-scientist gizmos created by a Son of Ether mage; the difference between a flame strike cast by a cleric of Nerull and the flame strike cast by a nautical druid is not so readily apparent.
Each system has advantages and disadvantages. If you're better at on-the-fly adjudication than you are at spontaneous flavor text, go Mage; if the opposite is true, go D&D.
Daniel
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William Ronald
Explorer
As I have read a few books, such as Sir James Frazier's The Golden Bough that deal with what might be termed "magical practices" in various societies -- from crop planting and harvest rituals to trying to keep Death at bay --, I think we need to ask what is magic used for in a game.
In pre-modern technological societies, such as those that prevailed around the world only a few centuries ago, many cultures had rituals to address various facets of life. Generally, these rituals were seen as effective -- and only failed when something was either wrong with how the ritual was performed or wrong with the community. Thus, such rituals were generally seen as reliable -- barring unforseen circumstances.
Thus, magic can be seen as serving the same purpose as technology: a way to accomplish something desired by an individual or a group of individuals. Mind you, magic as presented in traditional societies, fiction, and RPGs has some commonalities with technology. Both have experts and many common people don't quite understand how everything works.
As for the issue of keeping magic feeling "mysterious", I think you can do this with any rules systems. As I recall, Dragon Magazine Issue 200 had a GREAT article on this (I have it at home, and will try to reference it later.) One thing that you can do is to introduce new spell effects, or try to personalize things for a given order of wizards, a specific sorceror, or a religious sect. For example, maybe priests of the Egyprian god Ra cast spells that display light in addition to whatever else they do. ("As Pa-Ser, priest of Ra, touched the sword wound, light welled from his hands pouring into the deadly cut as it closed.") Or a group of fire elementalists may cast a magic missile spell that shoots out what appears to be tiny flames. It is up to a DM to provide balance and flavor to his games.
In pre-modern technological societies, such as those that prevailed around the world only a few centuries ago, many cultures had rituals to address various facets of life. Generally, these rituals were seen as effective -- and only failed when something was either wrong with how the ritual was performed or wrong with the community. Thus, such rituals were generally seen as reliable -- barring unforseen circumstances.
Thus, magic can be seen as serving the same purpose as technology: a way to accomplish something desired by an individual or a group of individuals. Mind you, magic as presented in traditional societies, fiction, and RPGs has some commonalities with technology. Both have experts and many common people don't quite understand how everything works.
As for the issue of keeping magic feeling "mysterious", I think you can do this with any rules systems. As I recall, Dragon Magazine Issue 200 had a GREAT article on this (I have it at home, and will try to reference it later.) One thing that you can do is to introduce new spell effects, or try to personalize things for a given order of wizards, a specific sorceror, or a religious sect. For example, maybe priests of the Egyprian god Ra cast spells that display light in addition to whatever else they do. ("As Pa-Ser, priest of Ra, touched the sword wound, light welled from his hands pouring into the deadly cut as it closed.") Or a group of fire elementalists may cast a magic missile spell that shoots out what appears to be tiny flames. It is up to a DM to provide balance and flavor to his games.
Robbert Raets
Explorer
Paging Hellcow....
Robbert Raets
Explorer
Alles turisten keeping das handenpickens off the faxenmachinen.KaeYoss said:Do you speak Engrish?
