Blog (A5E) Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?

In Level Up: Advanced Fifth Edition, we’re creating new incarnations of the 5e character classes. Before we build our new classes from the ground up, we need… a teardown of the originals to see how they work! Our design goal is to produce characters of approximately the same power level as the ones in the Players Handbook. We’ll need to do some math to figure out the targets we’re shooting...

In Level Up: Advanced Fifth Edition, we’re creating new incarnations of the 5e character classes. Before we build our new classes from the ground up, we need… a teardown of the originals to see how they work!

Our design goal is to produce characters of approximately the same power level as the ones in the Players Handbook. We’ll need to do some math to figure out the targets we’re shooting for. Before we crunch the numbers, though, let's talk about what we mean by power level.

World Power Level

First, let me say that we're quite happy to expand characters’ abilities when it comes to the social and exploration pillars of the game. Some classes need more expansion than others. Currently, the wizard has dozens of exploration spells: scrying, teleportation, Jump, Find Traps, and many more. The bard has the social pillar covered, with Friends, Glibness, charms of all kinds, and the Expertise class feature which allows her to double her proficiency bonus. The rogue has Expertise but can't compete with the bard's spell tricks. A good roleplayer can do a lot with a fighter, but the class features don't do a lot of the heavy lifting.

We aim for each character class, including the non-spellcasters, to gain unique, powerful non-combat mechanical elements that let them do things that no other class can do. Let the spellcasters be jealous for once.



Combat Power Level

When I talk in this article about preserving the game's current power level, what I really mean is that a party of Level Up characters won't overperform or underperform a standard D&D party in combat. That means that you can play any D&D adventure, official or third party, and get the level of combat challenge that its designers intended.

Most of a class's combat statistics are pretty easy to figure out: How many hit points can we expect a fighter to have at level 10? What's a monk's typical Armor Class at level 3? Harder to calculate, but no less important, is this: how much damage can a character dish out at a given level? Without that piece of information, we can't really balance the classes' combat effectiveness.

There are so many variables in calculating damage that completely answering this question may be impossible. But we've got to start somewhere.

Let’s start with some assumptions.

1. I'll benchmark each character of level X against an enemy monster of CR X. Without some sort of class-granted accuracy bonus, each character hits 60% of the time. (Character attack bonus and monster Armor Class tend to increase at roughly the same rate.) If a class feature grants extra accuracy or advantage, that needs to be factored that into their average damage per round. (A mere +1 bonus to hit can result in an 8% damage boost!)

2. I assume that every area attack hits two monsters.

3. I average a character's damage over the first three rounds of combat.

4. For my benchmarks, I built Players Handbook-only characters, and I leaned towards the simplest subclass available. When presented with a class option, I chose the bigger-damage option. For instance, I built a Great Weapon fighter instead of a Protection build. I didn’t use feats, since I’d like this test to focus on class damage, not on feat effectiveness.

Before we start crunching numbers, we have an important decision to make. Which fight shall we simulate: an easy battle in which the party is conserving their resources, or an all-out assault where the wizards are using their highest spell slots, the fighter is using Action Surge, and the paladin is smiting everything that moves?

Why not both? Some classes can go nova, throwing down a lot of damage in a big fight, and some classes do steady damage throughout multiple fights. We need to be able to account for both of these strengths. So for each of the classes I surveyed, I charted their "no-resources" damage (using only infinitely-repeatable attacks they can perform at will) and their "nova" damage (using up every spell slot and class feature in order to maximize the amount of damage that they can deal).

To start, I charted the four "basic" D&D classes: the fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue, plus two more I was interested in: the paladin, which I've heard is overpowered in combat, and the ranger, about which I've heard the reverse.

Here's my chart, on which I track average damage per round for the six classes for levels one through twenty. The solid lines represent maximum nova damage, and the dotted lines represent at-will damage. The rogue only has one damage line, because it really has no limited nova powers.

classchart1.png

The first thing that jumps out at me is that most of the classes fall into one of two categories: high-nova/low-at will, or medium-nova/medium-at-will. The evoker wizard and life cleric can really lay down a lot of damage in a boss fight, but when they're not burning spell slots they plink away with low-damage cantrips. Meanwhile, the champion fighter is right down the strike zone on every pitch. It's always producing around the same amount of damage.

Overall, I like the design of these classes. If it was me, I'd differentiate cleric a bit more by having it do more at-will damage and less nova damage than the wizard, but that's just a minor quibble.

The next thing I notice is that people are right about the paladin and ranger. The nova paladin puts out almost twice as much damage as the nova ranger (and my ranger is trying hard, using bonus action spells every turn and Conjure Volley when it becomes available). And the paladin doesn't give up much to the ranger in any other category to make up for all that extra damage. The paladin's at-will damage is only a hair under the ranger's. The paladin has better armor, the same hit points and better healing abilities.

I know I'm cherry-picking a bit here since I've chosen classes I know to be badly balanced against each other, and I'm compounding this by sticking to the Players Handbook ranger when I know there are higher-damage options in Xanathar's Guide. Nevertheless, it's good to get a sense of what the combat-effectiveness extremes look like.

The last class I want to talk about here is the thief rogue. Since it doesn't have any nova capabilities, you can judge it as either an at-will or a nova attacker. As an at-will user, it's among the better ones, keeping pace with the champion fighter. But judged as a nova class, it's by far the worst. It gets left in the dust by the nova champion fighter. In fact, it gains a big edge over only one nova class—the ranger—and only at levels so high that they are seldom played.

It's worth noting that so far I've only graphed one subclass for each of the classes I've examined, and subclass can make a big difference. To illustrate that, here's the battlemaster fighter graphed onto the same chart.

classchart2.png

The battlemaster is a much better nova subclass than the champion! It almost challenges the paladin for the melee damage-per-round crown. If we accept the fighter as the "right down the middle" class who always produces medium damage, this widens the strike zone a great deal.

So now that we've squinted at some charts, what conclusions can we draw for our character class redesigns?

Lesson 1: Character damage increases linearly with level.

It's a bumpy ride along the way, especially at the first level of each tier (5, 11, and 17), but on the whole, the classes I've graphed do somewhere around 5 + level damage when not using any resources, and somewhere around 5 + (3.5 x level) when they're going all out.

More work is needed here. These patterns need to be borne out with an examination of the rest of the classes and subclasses, more sets of different assumptions (what if character level doesn't equal opponent CR? What if area attacks hit 4 enemies?), and, of course, double checking the math.

Lesson 2: We should try to stay true to the AGGREGATE average damage numbers instead of maintaining each class's current Damage Per Round.

I don't think there's anything sacred about the paladin being the best nova melee class and the backstabbing rogue underperforming everybody. I'd be happy to adjust the damage outputs of the specific classes to better match peoples' story expectations.

D&D doesn't need to be perfectly balanced - it's not a pvp game - but there shouldn't be classes that are much stronger or weaker in combat. Most peoples’ D&D games feature a fair amount of combat, and everyone deserves to have fun during that chunk of their week.

Lesson 3: Damage isn’t dealt in a spreadsheet.

This isn’t something I learned from this graphing exercise, but it’s a reminder not to take it too seriously. The circumstances of every battle are different. And that’s vital to remember when we’re designing class combat features. Depending on the location and the opponents, each class should have a chance to shine.

Wizards should excel against big groups of weak foes clustered within fireball range. Clerics should wreck undead. Rogues should deal the most damage when attacking from ambush. As for the rest of the classes… that’s where you come in.

For the people who have stuck with me through this long post, I have some questions for you. I'd love it if you posted your answers in the comments.
  • For each character class (or for a few classes that you have opinions about), what are the combat circumstances in which you'd expect them to excel?

  • Am I overthinking this? Does combat damage matter to you?

Continue reading...
 

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Paul Hughes

Paul Hughes

Stalker0

Legend
It's not "partially" up to the gm, it's entirely up to the gm

That's fair enough but still doesn't stop my original point, which is .... why yes a 10 minute long spell does last longer than a 1 minute spell....but its not automatically going to last all adventure long.

Now a DM might rule that a 1 minute spell lasts "a fight or two". They could even rule that its "1 fight only". But regardless of how they want to do it.... the 10 minute spell lasts longer.... the DM decides how much longer is longer.... but its unlikely to be ruled as "all day".
 

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NotAYakk

Legend
So I did a really simple model.

Bob is a Rogue who uses 2 short swords. Bob hits 60% of the time, and never has advantage. Bob has 18 dex at level 4 and 20 dex at level 8 and no magical weapons. Monster AC exactly grows to keep Bob's hit rate at 60%.

At level 1 Bob deals 0.6 * 3 (static) + 0.65*2*3.5 (weapon damage dice) + 0.91 * 3.5 (sneak attack, including crit chance, on first hit), or 9.535 damage.

Every 2 levels gives Bob + 3.5 * .91 = 3.185 extra damage per round.

Level 4 and 8 give bob 0.6 extra damage per round.

So that is +1.6 damage per round per level, plus an extra 1.2 from attribute bumps over 8 levels (+0.15 per level). If we assume post-8 the rogue finds something to help as much as attribute bumps...

Thus: We can model Baseline Rogue DPR at 7.8 + 1.75 * level, all at-will.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
This might be a bit of necromancy given it's been a couple weeks since the last post, but I recently finished running Descent into avernus & noticed a few things wrt damage output (at will and nova) in a glaring spotlight because of the downright malicious loot distribution & resistances in it. For a caster they have a +1 wand of the warmage(rare), some spellbooks there is not even enough gold to use much even if the wizard takes 100% of the gold in the entire hardcover & a bunch of amazing melee weapons. Consistently the melee would outdamage casters by far in both at will & nova while ignoring "resistant to nonmagical bludgeoning piercing & slashing damage" alongside casters who were frequently up against energy or magic resistance. I wanted to map it out to see how bad it was without the randomness of good/bad rolls that might have been influencing perception & the results were... pretty much hat linear fighter quadratic wizard seems to be inverted long before I got to the wonderous item or legendary weapons that add damage dice to melee attacks. The +2 weapon(also rare) from almost the start of the200+page HC on page 67 had results that were stark enough to make the later weapons & wonderous items seemed pointless to map in the sheet.
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What is particularly troubling is that a +2 greatsword at will & nova of every class on the spreadsheet section I was ale to copy including the casters who will frequently have their damage cut in half from resistances that range from 1-2 elements that might include magic resistance for advatage on saves against spells & magical effects to "Damage Resistances cold, fire , lightning; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from non magical weapons" alongside that magic resistance". Not only are casters pretty much snubbed in Descent's magic items they don't really even have magic items with results that compare. This is definitely a pitfall that should be avoided or at least strongly considered when trying to balance against the chance of lfqw/codzilla in casters.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
So at level 9+, your champion fighter is up against animate objects.

You dump a quiver and summon 10 tiny animated arrows that each deal 1d4+4 damage, totaling to 65 damage at +8 to hit.

That is roughly a full attack with a +2 greatsword at level 11 with greatweapon fighting style and greatweapon feat. But the caster burns 1 action and 1 spell slot and concentration, and every round afterwards gets to deal the damage (bonus action to redirect).

And if the foe doesn't drop quick, they can order aid another actions instead of the 6.5, giving advantage to some martial character.

Other things that match or exceed +2 greatsword attack include a hexblade curse augmented magic missil

By level 11, when the fighter finally gets the 3rd attack, the wizard gets otto's irresistable dance. It takes some bad guy, grants basically incapacitates them, and doesn't grant a save until the it burns a turn of the target and grants all allies advantage for a round.

At level 13, the spellcaster gets force cage. Two spellcasters can simply win against a foe who cannot teleport; one drops an AOE damage type effect, the other drops forcecage, and the targets trapped ... just lose.

Or contagion. Melee spell attack to inflict poisoned (no save). Then the target has to make/fail 3 saves; on the 3rd, they basically lose the game. You have to pass 3 saves to get rid of poisoned.

Poisoned is almost a "you lose"; disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks. So here we have "hit, and target loses for 3 rounds" unless target is immune to poisoned condition.

Telekinesis; restrain with an opposed ability check. Bother your local bard to make this trivial (enhance ability, bardic inspiration) or priest (guidance). Restrain is "disadvantage on all attacks, advantage on all attacks on them"; a "you lose" effect.

---

Yes, in 5e, the at-will damage of a damage optimized weapon wielder approaches or exceeds the damage output of a non-optimized spellcaster.

Given the number of things the spellcaster can do, including magnify the damage of the weapon user, it isn't all that big of a problem.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So at level 9+, your champion fighter is up against animate objects.

You dump a quiver and summon 10 tiny animated arrows that each deal 1d4+4 damage, totaling to 65 damage at +8 to hit.

That is roughly a full attack with a +2 greatsword at level 11 with greatweapon fighting style and greatweapon feat. But the caster burns 1 action and 1 spell slot and concentration, and every round afterwards gets to deal the damage (bonus action to redirect).

And if the foe doesn't drop quick, they can order aid another actions instead of the 6.5, giving advantage to some martial character.

Other things that match or exceed +2 greatsword attack include a hexblade curse augmented magic missil

By level 11, when the fighter finally gets the 3rd attack, the wizard gets otto's irresistable dance. It takes some bad guy, grants basically incapacitates them, and doesn't grant a save until the it burns a turn of the target and grants all allies advantage for a round.

At level 13, the spellcaster gets force cage. Two spellcasters can simply win against a foe who cannot teleport; one drops an AOE damage type effect, the other drops forcecage, and the targets trapped ... just lose.

Or contagion. Melee spell attack to inflict poisoned (no save). Then the target has to make/fail 3 saves; on the 3rd, they basically lose the game. You have to pass 3 saves to get rid of poisoned.

Poisoned is almost a "you lose"; disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks. So here we have "hit, and target loses for 3 rounds" unless target is immune to poisoned condition.

Telekinesis; restrain with an opposed ability check. Bother your local bard to make this trivial (enhance ability, bardic inspiration) or priest (guidance). Restrain is "disadvantage on all attacks, advantage on all attacks on them"; a "you lose" effect.

---

Yes, in 5e, the at-will damage of a damage optimized weapon wielder approaches or exceeds the damage output of a non-optimized spellcaster.

Given the number of things the spellcaster can do, including magnify the damage of the weapon user, it isn't all that big of a problem.
There are a few problems with that, all of which I mentioned
+1d6 per weapon
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1d8+2d8+3
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So is immunity & I didn't even mention all the stuff just poison immune
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That's not even close to done with the creatures in descent & energy resistance paired with resist to nonmagical B/P/S. Nor does it touch on the many creatures with
1603482320180.png

All of this adds up into a massive overcompensation with too many pieces trying to defend on their own against LFQW while concentration & other class specific quirks are trying to do the same. As to your "Given the number of things the spellcaster can do" comment, concentration & the need to have specific spells known/prepared along with the need to have a huge number of attack spells prepared because casters alone are regularly subject to both condition & damage resistances all the way to 20.

Also, nowhere in animate object does it note that damage from those creatures is magical, nor does the animated armor, flying sword, or rug of smothering in the monster manual, the animated halberd in CoS, & so on... So go ahead and cut that in half too unless you think "maybe the gm will ignore that even though there are abilities like..."
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That suggest it should not be considered magical. Oh yea, the class/archetype with that ability doesn't get animated object. You can claim that this is only for a "non optimized spellcaster", but there simply are not magic items to change things of any rarity & the fact that a mere rare magic item throws it off this badly is telling when you look at things like the belt of giant strength bumping strength to 21/23/25/27/29 but no other stat enjoys such an item or the numerous magic weapons/armor that add +# in addition to effects, extra dice, and/or literal utility spells.
Oh yea, don't forget things like this +2 shield with true sight, an aura of dread, common<>infernal translation capability, & the ability to cast fireball/firewall
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along with all the great martial specific gear stacked against a wand of magic missile, wand of the warmage +1, & wand of secrets , & a couple spellbooks paired with too little gold in the entire adventure to really do much of anything with if the wizard wanting to use them is just taking an equal share of gold & not much more if they are taking all the gold. Descent into avernus lays bare just how hollow so many of your arguments from the days when LFQW was still a thing & because I did mess up on the damage boost by not multiplying the +2s after the crit range bump is applied to champion it should be fairly similar for any other fighter archetype.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
@NotAYakk
You brought up "Given the number of things the spellcaster can do, including magnify the damage of the weapon user, it isn't all that big of a problem." I didn't give it the credit those spells are due... Sure lets get into that, but I don't think you want to because the list is pretty bad from the perspective of someone buffing the party...
  • Enlarge: a single target spell that adds 1d4 damage to one person's attacks for one minute in exchange for a second level spell slot. The duration is too short to justify the slot given that it only gives +1d4/attack so is probably only going to last like one maybe two fights. On a mechanical level it has the damage die, duration, & possibly lack of +2 strength/-2dex/10ft range "size" bonus along with all the old benefits of being a larger size that made the old version sometimes worthwhile.
  • False life: Sure it's a buff, but it's self only & has only 1d4+4 temp hp. If that little amount of temp hp is meaningful you can't waste a spell slot on it instead of something that would contribute & just preparing it might be the same. If you can burn a level 1 spell slot for that, the amount of temp hp is likely almost meaningless & less than shield absorb elements & any number of other spells could save. Even mage armor is probably a better investment for someone that squishy. In the past it was pretty ok for a first level slot because it gave 1d10+1 per caster level for 1hr per caster level. Upcasting it for an extra 5 hp/slot level is the kind of thing that takes a mind altering substances to see like a good idea. It also doesn't help with damage.
  • Magic Weapon: Makes a nonmagical weapon +1 for 1 hour as opposed to previous versions that gave got a + enhancement bonus so a +0 keen/flaming/wounding/etc weapon could be improved. The 5e version suffers from a similar fate as false life where you probably don't need to give just one party member someone a +1 weapon if you can spare the 1st level slot & they probably have better by the time you could waste the slot. Even though it jumps to +3 with a 4th level slot, the same cycle repeats with 4th level spell slots except you add how a +0 flaming/keen/wounding/etc weapon is an invalid target because it's not a "nonmagical weapon".
  • Bestow curse: Even though this has a remove curse counterpart it only lasts one minute. Yes it makes you deal an extra 1d8 damage to the cursed target when you attack it, but that only applies to your attacks & doesn't by any stretch "magnify the damage of weapon users."
  • Dragon breath: You using an action to consume a second level spell slot to give an ally the ability to cast a cone aoe dealing 3d6 elemental damage as a second action within the next minute.... Technically it allows an ally to deal damage, but the action cost for you not to cast a cantrip & them not to just attack fails basic rudimentary mathematics so badly that it makes one wonder how it passed basic sanity checking even if they can do it for ten rounds (avg 9-10.5) while a greatsword with 18 strength will deal 2d6+4+2d6+4= 14-22 depending on if maing one or two attacks & that only gets worse the more attacks or sneak attack dice thy get A rapier with 2 attacks/1 attack & some sneak dice or even 2 short swords with 18 dex & sneak attack also handily beats it. Yes it works on a 15 foot cone, but the spell is so bad you probably won't have it prepared so you can cast it when the perfectly contrived situation comes up.
So yes.. tell us about all those unpublished/third party spells a caster can really depend on to meaningfully raise the damage output of a martial in 5e
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Dragon Breath: cast it on a familiar or a tiny servant.
Tiny servant: get them to aid another.
Enlarge: 2nd level slots are near free. Main use is, admittedly, for grappling.
Haste
Elemental Weapon
Holy Weapon
Flame arrows
Otto's irresistible dance
Hold person
Hold monster
Faerie Fire
Greater Invisibility
Dissonant Whispers (save or provoke OA)
Command
Invisibility (first attack of fight, lasts hours)
Polymorph (Giant Ape) (TRex)
Bless
Contagion
Divine Word
Create Bonfire
Elemental Bane
Insect Plague
Telekinesis
Magic Stone (tiny servants!)
Moonbeam
Wall of Fire

In some cases, this relies on characters having the ability to push/pull creatures cheaply with attacks (like an EB Warlock, for example). In other cases, it is granting advantage on attacks. In other cases, static damage, extra attacks, new attack forms, etc.

Some of these require ability checks, some saves, some attack rolls. Some are buffs on allies.

Many are concentration. The non-concentration ones tend to be weaker.

The list is not complete.

As a concrete example, level 4 slot (3 tiny servants) by one PC, plus bonus action by a druid every turn, is a volly of 3d6+15 (25.5) damage stones every turn, for 8 hours. No concentration.

Or drop a greater invisibility on a sharp shooter level 11 fighter; you'll boost her damage by a good 25%+ with one spell. Or haste (riskier) for +33% damage output.

(Btw, the +2d8 only happens on a 20, and that is a legendary weapon).
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Dragon Breath: cast it on a familiar or a tiny servant.
Tiny servant: get them to aid another.
Enlarge: 2nd level slots are near free. Main use is, admittedly, for grappling.
Haste
Elemental Weapon
Holy Weapon
Flame arrows
Otto's irresistible dance
Hold person
Hold monster
Faerie Fire
Greater Invisibility
Dissonant Whispers (save or provoke OA)
Command
Invisibility (first attack of fight, lasts hours)
Polymorph (Giant Ape) (TRex)
Bless
Contagion
Divine Word
Create Bonfire
Elemental Bane
Insect Plague
Telekinesis
Magic Stone (tiny servants!)
Moonbeam
Wall of Fire

In some cases, this relies on characters having the ability to push/pull creatures cheaply with attacks (like an EB Warlock, for example). In other cases, it is granting advantage on attacks. In other cases, static damage, extra attacks, new attack forms, etc.

Some of these require ability checks, some saves, some attack rolls. Some are buffs on allies.

Many are concentration. The non-concentration ones tend to be weaker.

The list is not complete.

As a concrete example, level 4 slot (3 tiny servants) by one PC, plus bonus action by a druid every turn, is a volly of 3d6+15 (25.5) damage stones every turn, for 8 hours. No concentration.

Or drop a greater invisibility on a sharp shooter level 11 fighter; you'll boost her damage by a good 25%+ with one spell. Or haste (riskier) for +33% damage output.

(Btw, the +2d8 only happens on a 20, and that is a legendary weapon).
elemetal weapon is forge cleric, paladin, & hexblade. All of those are classes & archetypes that are far from what would traditionally be called a caster given their weapon & armor proficiencies while being largely unaffected by the over abundance of energy resistant creatures wile posessing significant options for handling magic resistant creatures. Also the cleric's nova damage would be massively reduced by exchanging the concertation spell used there (spirit guardians) for elemental weapon. Yes artificer gets it at level nine when they get third level spells, but it's a concentration spell that grants a mere +1 & +1d4 and as a half caster are significantly hindered by the situation noted. That +1 at level nine is almost certain to go away entirely simply by virtue of casting it on a weapon with +1 or better already on it & +1d4 damage to one weapon of one party member needing concentration is an absurd demand.

Your comments about enlarge make me feel the need to question if you realize we are talking about 5e? The only effect of a successful grapple is making speed become zero. Even if that is useful it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". The only time enlarge would even come into play is if a size small pc wants to grapple a size large creature or a size medium a size huge... which again has nothing to do with magnifying the damage of the weapon user... It's also concentration to ensure it conflicts with most of the spells on your list
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Holy weapon is available to cleric & paladin not wizard sorcerer artificer.

Flame arrow is available to all of those but again it's a third level slot for +1d6 to one weapon for an hour making it barely ok but hardly the level of power you are ascribing to it and it becomes subject to the oh so common fire resistance.

Faerie fire is a save or suck spell, while giving advantage on attacks if the target fails the save will indeed raise damage of a weapon user against high ac targets, couple the prevalence of +1/+2 weapons with the prevalence of magic resistance and the fact that this spell is short duration (1m) single target (not like spirit guardians or hex where it can move) and requires concentration to conflict with every concentration spell on your list.


Ottos irresistable dance is a sixth level concentration spell that forces the target to use all movement dancing in place & grants advantage on attacks against it. as a spell, creatures with magic resistance have advantage on the save & creatures immune to charm are likewise immune This falls far short of the merit you seem to give it.


Hold person/hold monster? Back in 3.5 they were amazing where it allowed a coup de grace. In 5e ithey are concentration spells subject to magic resistance granting paralyzed condition on a failed save which creatures with magic resistance have advantage against.

Dissonant whispers? Bard & GoO warlock spell, two classes minimally impacted by an overabundance of resistances to fire ice cold acid & lightning. Your making the case for a serious problem not shown by the chars in the OP more & more.

Command? At best you are burning a first level spell slot of an AoO if the target fails the save & don't forget all the magic resistance.

Greater invis is a 4th level spell with both concentration requirement and a one minute duration. While it will certainly fill the conditions for a rogue to sneak attack, "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" makes concentration & the spell slot an especially dubious expenditure for the goal of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user."

Invisibility. Given the dubious value for greater invis, your decision to include this is even more questionable

Polymorph? This is not wildshape the polymorphed pc replaces their sheet with the statblock of the creature they polymorph into, they do not maintain access to their race/class abilities & equipment.. Oh yea, it's yet another concentration spell on your list.

Bless? I left off this concentration spell with a 1 minute duration because allowing 3 allies to add +1d4 to an attack roll or save needs to stretch to claim that it is a spell that will "magnify the damage of a weapon user"

Contagion? Once again nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"

Divine word? This is a seventh level spell with an effect based on the target's hitpoints. While being blinded deafened & stunned for one hour will certainly "magnify the damage of the weapon user", the fact that the spell caps out at creatures with 50 hit points and that effect is limited to creatures with hit points more than twenty but equal or less than 30.. Is a seventh level spell really necessary or the caster's party member to deal with such a creature? Did you even check what this did before listing it?

Create bonfire. This is A: a fire damage spell subject to both fire resist & magic resist. B: yet another concentration spell. & C: has absolutely nothing to do with" magnifying the damage of the weapon user." Why do you have so many spells like this that strengthen the case for a serious problem on your list of spells that would "magnify the damage of the weapon user"?

Elemental bane? a 4th level single target spell with a 1 min duration & no way to move it like spirit guardians & hex. While adding 2d6 damage of a specific element if the target fails a save to be affected by this and takes damage from that same element will certainly magnify the damage of the weapon user if they are using a weapon with an elemental component the spell is subject to elemental resistance & spell resistance that grants advantage to the save & unless you have a significant number of party members with a weapon bearing the same elemental component the cost/benefit is way out of line making this spell from EE pretty awful largely due to literally every component of the spell holding back lest it potentially be too good under some specific circumstamce other than "the entire party has a flametongue".

Insect plague? concentration damage spell with nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"

Telekinesis? Yet another concentration spell that allows you to move creatures & objects using a 5th level spell slot. While it's not a nuke it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"

Magic stone? Round about bonus action damage spell that has very little if anything to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" simply because "weapon users" rarely if ever choose to use a sling over some other weapon & 1d6+ your spellcasting modifier is not even particularly high on the ranged weapons table. "bob couldn't be bothered to carry a ranged weapon" is hardly what most would consider "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". It also has a one minute duration and purges the prior cast of stones if you cast again to ensure you don't do something useful with it like stock up each member of the party on a bunch of magic stones before a fight with a creature resistant to nonmagical b/p/s early on before the weapon users have magic weapons

Moon beam? A concentration nuke.. why is this on your list of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"

Wall of fire? A concentration damage field/area denial spell that has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"... why the heck is this on your list of spells that "magnify the damage of the weapon user"

You seem unaware that concentrating on one spell prevents you from concentrating on a second without breaking concentration on the first. Tiny servant is subject to resistance to nonmagical b/p/s & I covered that before you brought it up twice more.

Greater invis & the invisible condition do not do whatever you have them confused for to think it grants a 25% damage boost.

Thank you for helping to make my case.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
elemetal weapon is forge cleric, paladin, & hexblade. All of those are classes & archetypes that are far from what would traditionally be called a caster given their weapon & armor proficiencies while being largely unaffected by the over abundance of energy resistant creatures wile posessing significant options for handling magic resistant creatures.
And bard via magical secrets.

A cleric hitting things with a stick is doing abysmal damage output, getting increasingly bad as you gain levels.

So 3 full caster classes.

Also the cleric's nova damage would be massively reduced by exchanging the concertation spell used there (spirit guardians) for elemental weapon. Yes artificer gets it at level nine when they get third level spells, but it's a concentration spell that grants a mere +1 & +1d4 and as a half caster are significantly hindered by the situation noted. That +1 at level nine is almost certain to go away entirely simply by virtue of casting it on a weapon with +1 or better already on it & +1d4 damage to one weapon of one party member needing concentration is an absurd demand.
On a hasted (someone else) level 11 fighter over a single 3 round fight that is 15 swings. It lasts an hour, so could easily last through 3 fights for 40 swings.

40 swings times 2.5 is 100 damage if they hit.

Your comments about enlarge make me feel the need to question if you realize we are talking about 5e? The only effect of a successful grapple is making speed become zero. Even if that is useful it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". The only time enlarge would even come into play is if a size small pc wants to grapple a size large creature or a size medium a size huge... which again has nothing to do with magnifying the damage of the weapon user... It's also concentration to ensure it conflicts with most of the spells on your list
So, the proper use of grappling is you grapple your foe, then knock it prone.

When enlarged, you can grapple Huge foes.

So take a Huge dragon or whatever. Grapple it. Knock it prone.

It now has 0 movement, so cannot stand up without escaping, and has disadvantage on all attacks, and any adjacent character has advantage on attacks on it.

Any creature that (a) cannot teleport, (b) cannot force movement on the wrestler, and (c) cannot beat the athletics checks of the grappler is basically done for.

Usually grapple only works on up to large size foes. Enlarge makes the limit huge. Polymorph giant ape makes it unlimited.

Holy weapon is available to cleric & paladin not wizard sorcerer artificer.
So cleric (full caster) and bard (full caster) via magical secrets.
Flame arrow is available to all of those but again it's a third level slot for +1d6 to one weapon for an hour making it barely ok but hardly the level of power you are ascribing to it and it becomes subject to the oh so common fire resistance.
10 attack rounds, on a fighter that is 30-40 attacks, times 1d6, is on the order of 100 damage.

A out of combat spell that grants 100 damage isn't a bad use of a slot. It does require concentration; so you will use a better concentration spell if you have it and have the slots to burn.

Faerie fire is a save or suck spell, while giving advantage on attacks if the target fails the save will indeed raise damage of a weapon user against high ac targets, couple the prevalence of +1/+2 weapons with the prevalence of magic resistance and the fact that this spell is short duration (1m) single target (not like spirit guardians or hex where it can move) and requires concentration to conflict with every concentration spell on your list.
If your allies have GWM or SS, advantage turns it from marginal to amazing on every single AC range plausible (short of zombies with their 8 AC).

And faerie fire is a 20 foot cube, 1st level spell.

If you drop it on multiple foes and 1 or 2 fail their save, those two foes get burned down in a blink.
Ottos irresistable dance is a sixth level concentration spell that forces the target to use all movement dancing in place & grants advantage on attacks against it. as a spell, creatures with magic resistance have advantage on the save & creatures immune to charm are likewise immune This falls far short of the merit you seem to give it.
Ottos is no save to land. You get 1 full round of enemy suckage. And they have to burn an action to even get a save.

Drop it on a dragon, pit fiend, kracken (film at 11), or whatever big bad right after their turn.

Your entire team gets a volly of advantage fire. If you are coordinated, you can pull off more than one; allies can ready an attack round for someone's attack after you cast the spell, get that one, then get another when their turn comes around.

Done properly, a single cast of Ottos kills a BBEG by magnifying the damage of every attacker in the party. And even if it doesn't, it buys you an entire turn where the enemy sucks.

Hold person/hold monster? Back in 3.5 they were amazing where it allowed a coup de grace. In 5e ithey are concentration spells subject to magic resistance granting paralyzed condition on a failed save which creatures with magic resistance have advantage against.
Yes, it isn't 3.5 broken.

A 5th level hold person is a 4 target save-or-lose. A 6th level hold monster is a 2 target save-or-lose.

Now, before burning a 6th level slot, you could get a bard or cleric to drop a bane on 3-4 targets, fishing for up to 2 failed saves. Then drop hold monster on those two.

Once on a target, your weapon users get auto-crits and auto-advantage. This can easily more than double their damage output.

Dissonant whispers? Bard & GoO warlock spell, two classes minimally impacted by an overabundance of resistances to fire ice cold acid & lightning. Your making the case for a serious problem not shown by the chars in the OP more & more.
So by "caster" you mean "wizards and sorcerers".

Note that if you have animate objects running and the bard whispers, they all get another attack as well. If you don't have magic arrows (or magic stones) or the like to animate, half damage is still good on animate objects.

Use your words man. I went through a pile of spell lists to find damage boosting spells and it was a waste of time because to you "caster" means "wizard and sorcerers"
Command? At best you are burning a first level spell slot of an AoO if the target fails the save & don't forget all the magic resistance.
An AoO from every ally, and they lose their action. And you get 1 target per spell level.

So you drop a 4th level slot and 4 enemies get to try to save. Maybe you go grovel if they aren't in a great AOO spam position; now 1 out of 4 is on the floor. Your allies focus-fire it with advantage, and it drops. You burned a 4th level slot to boost your allies damage to a significant degree.
Greater invis is a 4th level spell with both concentration requirement and a one minute duration. While it will certainly fill the conditions for a rogue to sneak attack, "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" makes concentration & the spell slot an especially dubious expenditure for the goal of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user."
I don't think you understand how good auto-advantage is.

Let us take a level 11 PAM+GWM fighter using a +2 glaive. We'll make it a champion to keep it easy.

They get 4 attacks/round at +4 (prof) +2 (magic) +5 (dex) = +11 to hit.

Their damage dice are 3d10+1d4 (21.9 after GWF) and their static damage is 28.

Against an AC 18 foe they hit on a 7+ and crit on a 19-20 for 0.7 hits and 0.1 crits per swing.

28*.7 + 21.9*.8 = 37.1 damage per round.

Now they get advantage and switch to -5/+10.

Their static damage grows to 68.

They hit on a 12+ and crit on a 19+, but with advantage this is 70% hit rate 19% crit rate.

21.9*.89 + 68*.7 = 67.1 damage per round.

Advantage gave this character +30 damage per round. So even if you cannot pre-buff greater invisibility, your one cast of it contributes 90 damage over the next 3 rounds.

Without your greater invisibility, your ally would have done 37.1 * 3 = 111.3 damage With it, they do another 90. If we attribute that damage to you, that means to keep up you need only do 21.3 damage over the next 2 rounds to have matched their contribution to the fight.

"Helping a rogue sneak attack" is not the goal.

Invisibility. Given the dubious value for greater invis, your decision to include this is even more questionable
Invisibility is a pre-buff, so it doesn't cost a combat action -- it lasts over an hour.

It grants advantage on the first attack of every PC, and makes ambushes easier to do.

A 3rd level pre-buff to generate 2 advantage attacks; if they are -5/+10 characters that is a pretty combat-action-efficient no-concentration-in-combat use of a spell slot.

Polymorph? This is not wildshape the polymorphed pc replaces their sheet with the statblock of the creature they polymorph into, they do not maintain access to their race/class abilities & equipment.. Oh yea, it's yet another concentration spell on your list.
Of course, I am talking about massive buffs. They almost all have concentration.

Toss polymorph (giant ape) on an ally and they soak 100+ points of damage and put to very respectable damage, especially at level 7. They also break the game in fun ways, like the fact that giant apes can grapple ancient dragons.

Bless? I left off this concentration spell with a 1 minute duration because allowing 3 allies to add +1d4 to an attack roll or save needs to stretch to claim that it is a spell that will "magnify the damage of a weapon user"
Yes, it does?

12.5% of swings are converted from a miss into a hit.

If each ally swings twice per round, and the fight lasts 3 rounds, and there are 3 allies, this generates:
.125 * 2 * 3 * 3
= 2.25 additional hits on average.

If your allies have a 60% hit rate, they get 1.2 hits/round. So your cast of bless was 1.88x as good as their action (ok, a bit less because of crits). And it gave a bonus to their saving throws.

With a 1st level spell slot and concentration.

That means your next 2 actions only need to be 3/4 as good as theirs for your contribution to match theirs.

Bless is a cheap way to use your concentration resource. A divine soul sorcerer (for example) should grab it, and burn 1st level slots with it when they don't have better things (see above and below) to use concentration on.

Every single example in this answer is giving cases where 1 action + 1 spell slot + concentration swings combat more than the action of a non-spellcaster does (or the action is out of combat). If you can pull off an action that is 2x as good as an ally's actions in a 3 round combat, your remaining actions need only be half as good as theirs to match the total contribution.

Contagion? Once again nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"
True; the poisoned condition just makes a monster useless.

The pre-errata version (depending on interpretation) did a better job at making damage output skyrocket. But this version is less broken. Sorry about that.
Divine word? This is a seventh level spell with an effect based on the target's hitpoints. While being blinded deafened & stunned for one hour will certainly "magnify the damage of the weapon user", the fact that the spell caps out at creatures with 50 hit points and that effect is limited to creatures with hit points more than twenty but equal or less than 30.. Is a seventh level spell really necessary or the caster's party member to deal with such a creature? Did you even check what this did before listing it?
I included spells that shut down single big bad monsters (like ottos) and spells that make hordes useless (like divine word).

Which one is more useful depends on what kind of foes you are fighting.
Create bonfire. This is A: a fire damage spell subject to both fire resist & magic resist. B: yet another concentration spell. & C: has absolutely nothing to do with" magnifying the damage of the weapon user." Why do you have so many spells like this that strengthen the case for a serious problem on your list of spells that would "magnify the damage of the weapon user"?
Can your vs-AC attackers move foes around? If so, zone spells count
Elemental bane? a 4th level single target spell with a 1 min duration & no way to move it like spirit guardians & hex. While adding 2d6 damage of a specific element if the target fails a save to be affected by this and takes damage from that same element will certainly magnify the damage of the weapon user if they are using a weapon with an elemental component the spell is subject to elemental resistance & spell resistance that grants advantage to the save & unless you have a significant number of party members with a weapon bearing the same elemental component the cost/benefit is way out of line making this spell from EE pretty awful largely due to literally every component of the spell holding back lest it potentially be too good under some specific circumstamce other than "the entire party has a flametongue".
It isn't subject to elemental resistance; it removes it.
Insect plague? concentration damage spell with nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"
Zone damage.
Telekinesis? Yet another concentration spell that allows you to move creatures & objects using a 5th level spell slot. While it's not a nuke it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"
Restrained, no save.
Magic stone? Round about bonus action damage spell that has very little if anything to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" simply because "weapon users" rarely if ever choose to use a sling over some other weapon & 1d6+ your spellcasting modifier is not even particularly high on the ranged weapons table. "bob couldn't be bothered to carry a ranged weapon" is hardly what most would consider "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". It also has a one minute duration and purges the prior cast of stones if you cast again to ensure you don't do something useful with it like stock up each member of the party on a bunch of magic stones before a fight with a creature resistant to nonmagical b/p/s early on before the weapon users have magic weapons
Cast tiny servant with a 4th level slot for 3 servants. Cast magic stone, and your bonus action does decent damage.
Moon beam? A concentration nuke.. why is this on your list of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"
Zone damage.
Wall of fire? A concentration damage field/area denial spell that has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"... why the heck is this on your list of spells that "magnify the damage of the weapon user"
Zone damage.
You seem unaware that concentrating on one spell prevents you from concentrating on a second without breaking concentration on the first. Tiny servant is subject to resistance to nonmagical b/p/s & I covered that before you brought it up twice more.
You seem to think I'm suggesting casting all of these in row or soemthing?

(a) half damage is still damage.
(b) did you see magic stone above? They can throw those stones.
(c) they can do the help action, giving advantage to a weapon user.

Greater invis & the invisible condition do not do whatever you have them confused for to think it grants a 25% damage boost.
It is closer to a 80% damage boost than 25% on someone with GWM or SS.

Advantage is a huge, hugely powerful magnifier of damage.

Thank you for helping to make my case.
You are welcome, person whose name is a caustic chemical.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
And bard via magical secrets.

A cleric hitting things with a stick is doing abysmal damage output, getting increasingly bad as you gain levels.

So 3 full caster classes.


On a hasted (someone else) level 11 fighter over a single 3 round fight that is 15 swings. It lasts an hour, so could easily last through 3 fights for 40 swings.

40 swings times 2.5 is 100 damage if they hit.


So, the proper use of grappling is you grapple your foe, then knock it prone.

When enlarged, you can grapple Huge foes.

So take a Huge dragon or whatever. Grapple it. Knock it prone.

It now has 0 movement, so cannot stand up without escaping, and has disadvantage on all attacks, and any adjacent character has advantage on attacks on it.

Any creature that (a) cannot teleport, (b) cannot force movement on the wrestler, and (c) cannot beat the athletics checks of the grappler is basically done for.

Usually grapple only works on up to large size foes. Enlarge makes the limit huge. Polymorph giant ape makes it unlimited.


So cleric (full caster) and bard (full caster) via magical secrets.

10 attack rounds, on a fighter that is 30-40 attacks, times 1d6, is on the order of 100 damage.

A out of combat spell that grants 100 damage isn't a bad use of a slot. It does require concentration; so you will use a better concentration spell if you have it and have the slots to burn.


If your allies have GWM or SS, advantage turns it from marginal to amazing on every single AC range plausible (short of zombies with their 8 AC).

And faerie fire is a 20 foot cube, 1st level spell.

If you drop it on multiple foes and 1 or 2 fail their save, those two foes get burned down in a blink.

Ottos is no save to land. You get 1 full round of enemy suckage. And they have to burn an action to even get a save.

Drop it on a dragon, pit fiend, kracken (film at 11), or whatever big bad right after their turn.

Your entire team gets a volly of advantage fire. If you are coordinated, you can pull off more than one; allies can ready an attack round for someone's attack after you cast the spell, get that one, then get another when their turn comes around.

Done properly, a single cast of Ottos kills a BBEG by magnifying the damage of every attacker in the party. And even if it doesn't, it buys you an entire turn where the enemy sucks.


Yes, it isn't 3.5 broken.

A 5th level hold person is a 4 target save-or-lose. A 6th level hold monster is a 2 target save-or-lose.

Now, before burning a 6th level slot, you could get a bard or cleric to drop a bane on 3-4 targets, fishing for up to 2 failed saves. Then drop hold monster on those two.

Once on a target, your weapon users get auto-crits and auto-advantage. This can easily more than double their damage output.


So by "caster" you mean "wizards and sorcerers".

Note that if you have animate objects running and the bard whispers, they all get another attack as well. If you don't have magic arrows (or magic stones) or the like to animate, half damage is still good on animate objects.

Use your words man. I went through a pile of spell lists to find damage boosting spells and it was a waste of time because to you "caster" means "wizard and sorcerers"

An AoO from every ally, and they lose their action. And you get 1 target per spell level.

So you drop a 4th level slot and 4 enemies get to try to save. Maybe you go grovel if they aren't in a great AOO spam position; now 1 out of 4 is on the floor. Your allies focus-fire it with advantage, and it drops. You burned a 4th level slot to boost your allies damage to a significant degree.

I don't think you understand how good auto-advantage is.

Let us take a level 11 PAM+GWM fighter using a +2 glaive. We'll make it a champion to keep it easy.

They get 4 attacks/round at +4 (prof) +2 (magic) +5 (dex) = +11 to hit.

Their damage dice are 3d10+1d4 (21.9 after GWF) and their static damage is 28.

Against an AC 18 foe they hit on a 7+ and crit on a 19-20 for 0.7 hits and 0.1 crits per swing.

28*.7 + 21.9*.8 = 37.1 damage per round.

Now they get advantage and switch to -5/+10.

Their static damage grows to 68.

They hit on a 12+ and crit on a 19+, but with advantage this is 70% hit rate 19% crit rate.

21.9*.89 + 68*.7 = 67.1 damage per round.

Advantage gave this character +30 damage per round. So even if you cannot pre-buff greater invisibility, your one cast of it contributes 90 damage over the next 3 rounds.

Without your greater invisibility, your ally would have done 37.1 * 3 = 111.3 damage With it, they do another 90. If we attribute that damage to you, that means to keep up you need only do 21.3 damage over the next 2 rounds to have matched their contribution to the fight.

"Helping a rogue sneak attack" is not the goal.


Invisibility is a pre-buff, so it doesn't cost a combat action -- it lasts over an hour.

It grants advantage on the first attack of every PC, and makes ambushes easier to do.

A 3rd level pre-buff to generate 2 advantage attacks; if they are -5/+10 characters that is a pretty combat-action-efficient no-concentration-in-combat use of a spell slot.


Of course, I am talking about massive buffs. They almost all have concentration.

Toss polymorph (giant ape) on an ally and they soak 100+ points of damage and put to very respectable damage, especially at level 7. They also break the game in fun ways, like the fact that giant apes can grapple ancient dragons.


Yes, it does?

12.5% of swings are converted from a miss into a hit.

If each ally swings twice per round, and the fight lasts 3 rounds, and there are 3 allies, this generates:
.125 * 2 * 3 * 3
= 2.25 additional hits on average.

If your allies have a 60% hit rate, they get 1.2 hits/round. So your cast of bless was 1.88x as good as their action (ok, a bit less because of crits). And it gave a bonus to their saving throws.

With a 1st level spell slot and concentration.

That means your next 2 actions only need to be 3/4 as good as theirs for your contribution to match theirs.

Bless is a cheap way to use your concentration resource. A divine soul sorcerer (for example) should grab it, and burn 1st level slots with it when they don't have better things (see above and below) to use concentration on.

Every single example in this answer is giving cases where 1 action + 1 spell slot + concentration swings combat more than the action of a non-spellcaster does (or the action is out of combat). If you can pull off an action that is 2x as good as an ally's actions in a 3 round combat, your remaining actions need only be half as good as theirs to match the total contribution.


True; the poisoned condition just makes a monster useless.

The pre-errata version (depending on interpretation) did a better job at making damage output skyrocket. But this version is less broken. Sorry about that.

I included spells that shut down single big bad monsters (like ottos) and spells that make hordes useless (like divine word).

Which one is more useful depends on what kind of foes you are fighting.

Can your vs-AC attackers move foes around? If so, zone spells count

It isn't subject to elemental resistance; it removes it.

Zone damage.

Restrained, no save.

Cast tiny servant with a 4th level slot for 3 servants. Cast magic stone, and your bonus action does decent damage.

Zone damage.

Zone damage.

You seem to think I'm suggesting casting all of these in row or soemthing?

(a) half damage is still damage.
(b) did you see magic stone above? They can throw those stones.
(c) they can do the help action, giving advantage to a weapon user.


It is closer to a 80% damage boost than 25% on someone with GWM or SS.

Advantage is a huge, hugely powerful magnifier of damage.


You are welcome, person whose name is a caustic chemical.
You've got a big overestimation of "zone damage" most people call an area of effect, but sure lets look at that. Moonbeam is a second level concertation spell that deals 2d10 over a 5 foot radius=10x10 . The first round a caster might get 2 maybe even three baddies if lucky, the second round it's probably going to be more like 1 most rounds averaging out to 10-11 depending on if add the fractions or round down. In order to cast it, the caster needs to expend an action casting it rather than a cantrip like produce flame (1d8 avg 4.5 level 2 when 2nd level slots become available.) so that first round damage from the spell is more like +6 to +7. Yes moonbeam can keep working for a full minute where the druid caster is dealing 1d8 from produce flame with an action +2d10 from monbeam if the fight lasts that long but during that time a fighter with the greatsword used by the OP is dealing 2d6+3 for an average of 7-10 damage with the same depending on if the fraction adds or not. Ignoring the first round complexities & giving the caster a second action to cantrip+moonbeam for the sake of simplification puts it at ~14-15 damage/round over ten rounds while the fighter is doing 7-10 over those same rounds in a seemingly impressive split.

At level 2 a fight that lasts ten rounds probably has a serious & near certain chance of being beyond merely lethal though so lets jump to 5th where things drastically. Keeping that free action for the druid he's doing around 18-19 damage/round. The fighter bumped strength from +3 to +4, got second attack & picked up a +1 greatsword so deals 9-12 each attack for a total of 18-24 at will making the druid really start noticing the disparity of his rules bending nova damage falling so far behind the fighter's at will damage while wotc showers the fighter in magical gear like water in every HC adventure while mostly snubbing him the spellcasting druid. If the druid bumps moonbeam to one of his two third level slots his damage climbs from 18-19 up to 22-23/round for ten rounds twice per long rest. Then the class capable of getting a crit gets a crit & the 2/long rest rules bending nova damage that was barely managing to fit within the fighter's at will damage suddenly falls far short. No matter the spell that disparity only continues to grow even faster as the fighter gets the better gear he can expect to get over time & a third attack at 11 yet we have not even mentioned the HP spread, AC disparity, or the magic effects baked into heavier magic armors not found in lighter ones or how a single miss/resist impacts the druid massively more than the fighter to further widen the spread.

You could cry foul & say "well the fighter has a +1 weapon & the druid has nothing". That is a notable point that raises a second problem. Unlike LMoP, OoTA, CoS, TYP, HoTDQ, RoT, dragonheist, DotMM, saltmarsh, & likely others Descent manages to join STK & PoTA include one wand of the war mage +1 alongside numerous phenomenal weapons far better than just +1 to ensure that the disparity continues to widen even if the caster manages to get one. In fact, like the +1 & +2 weapons in those linked adventures the wand of the war mage +1 is not even magical enough to show up on the list of all magic items in HC on ddb filtered by HC.

However it's painfully obvious that you are largely ignoring what I write & how it related to the main point of disparity & just responding in a never ending gish gallop of shifting goalposts that ignore the problems related to the main point in order to argue over tangents that are drifting further & further from the point. It's ok to admit that the damage disparity is beyond the pale when combined with all the magic resists energy resists & massive treasure disparity but the gish gallop is just silly .
 

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