D&D 5E Class bloat without multiclassing?

[FrogReaver]

By and large 5e offers few choices at character development. A fighting style here a few spells there etc. The only major choice you have is what class to play and since there often is overlap between what characters the classes can represent you may have a few choices there.

IMO just because someone finds an in game justification to do something or gives one in their background or etc. doesn't mean they have let the character organically develop. If true organic development was the concern then you would see about the same number of Fighter 4/Wizard 1 as you do Fighter 5/Wizard 1 and Fighter 6/Wizard 1 and Fighter 1/Wizard 4 and Fighter 1/Wizard 5. But you don't see anywhere near the same. So you are right that it can be blurred. Someone can find a reason or justification for taking levels in some other class. It generally isn't hard to. But their choices on when they take those levels betrays them as checking on the mechanics before taking the multiclass plunge which means that they aren't just multiclassing organically.

Just to add on that, I think this hard distinction between multiclassing for "in-story, organic reasons" or multiclassing for mechanical reasons can be blurred. As an anecdote:

One of my players had this history that he was a member of a merchant family with shadowy affairs, and he was directly involved on smuggling and handling unpleasant figures on behalf on his family. He started thus as a rogue, quite suitable for the background provided. Because of his family dealings, he also got hand on valuable and exotic merchandise, some of which, he noticed, had mysterious properties. One of such items was a figurine in the form of a man with one goat-leg, that he decided to keep for himself, as he felt like the figure looked after him as a kind of protection token.

Eventually, his family got involved in business with a more shadowy partner, that "played on another league", who eventually betrayed and killed all his kin, setting fire to their headquarters while blocking the exits. He barely managed to survive and escape, got all scarred by the flames, and became a hunted man. At this moment, the figurine reached for him. It promised him protection against persecution, and also power to carry out his vengeance, in exchange for his soul. He went for it.

By multiclassing into warlock, the player was clearly looking for game-mechanical benefits. Mask of many faces, devil sight, access to the spell darkness. But the "in-story character" was looking for pretty much the same "in-story benefits". He was hunted, a known face by his persecutors, and even a fairly distinguishable individual by the scars, had his nemesis decided to employ bounty hunters, so in dire need of the disguise offered by the figurine. He was driven by vengeance, and wanted power to exact it, which the figurine was eager to provide. Heck, when I think about it, aren't most choices (not just multiclassing) done at character development a mix of in-story and game-mechanic reasons? Not hard to guess he chose to become an assassin as his rogue archetype, again for reasons on both sides.

 

[FrogReaver]

Did I miss a reason this hypothetical all-organic fighter didn't just go EK at 3rd?

Ah come on now, you know they can find a justification for that. Maybe the offer to be trained as a wizard didn't happen till level 4 and the fighter was already a battlemaster.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm almost positive I already answered 'yes' to that exact question, given the specific parameters you keep insisting on. I'm starting to get the impression I'm not being listened to. Time to have another adult beverage and find something fun to watch on the ol' idiot box.

IMO. You answered a bit different of a question than I intended to ask so I tried to be a little more specific in my question this second time around. Thanks for clarifying.

So if your foundational belief is that Fighter 4 and then taking wizard 1 is just as common as Fighter 6 then taking wizard 1 then we don't have enough common ground to discuss this matter. Thanks for your input though. I'm sure someone will find it useful. But there isn't any reason to continue our discussion when our foundations are at such different places. We will not be able reach any kind of agreement because of that and any points you make I will not agree with and vice versa.

Feel free to stay around and comment all you want. Bring your points up for others. Maybe their foundation will be closer to yours than mine But it's nearly pointless for us to engage directly on this topic IMO.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So you don't believe it's less likely to see a fighter 4 /wizard 1 than a fighter 5 / wizard 1?

Personally, I'd have said that the Fighter 4 /Wizard 1 is rarer than the Fighter 5 /Wizard 1.
I'm just not entirely sure how that is relevant in this particular subdiscussion you're having with Corwin over whether Fighter 4/Wizard 1 characters exist at all.

 

[Corwin]

Feel free to stay around and comment all you want. Bring your points up for others. Maybe their foundation will be closer to yours than mine But it's nearly pointless for us to engage directly on this topic IMO.

Sure, as long as you can refrain from making further bombastic, hyperbolic claims about the entirety of the 5e player base. No prob.

But I'll be back for your next one.

 

[Corwin]

Ah come on now, you know they can find a justification for that. Maybe the offer to be trained as a wizard didn't happen till level 4 and the fighter was already a battlemaster.

Thanks for the additional proof that this is the kind of thing that would happen more naturally as the story evolved, rather than pre-planned. And you say we have no common ground.

 

[Corwin]

Did I miss a reason this hypothetical all-organic fighter didn't just go EK at 3rd?

In case you weren't aware, EKs focus heavily on primarily abjuration and evocation magic, do not have the flexibility of a spellbook with which to fine-tune their spell choices for the day, cannot ritual cast, nor can they ever access spells above 4th level. Let me know if you need more good reasons. I can try and dig up the less obvious ones.

It's almost like EKs aren't really like mini-wizards at all, they just happen to use the same spell list...

 

[Corwin]

If true organic development...

Here, I think, the real disconnect between us. You are basically OneTrueWaying. I ain't got time for that. Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I have yet to see a concept where multiclassing is necessary. Not to powergame a concept that is different. In fact I have yet to see a concept that can't be done with Fighter, Mage, Thief, and Cleric.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In case you weren't aware, EKs focus heavily on primarily abjuration and evocation magic, do not have the flexibility of a spellbook with which to fine-tune their spell choices for the day, cannot ritual cast, nor can they ever access spells above 4th level..

The organic fighter in question was low-level. I would think that pulling concerns like whether you'd ever pull down 5th level spells would be more of a 20-level-build-in-advance 3.x/PF CharOp thing, which'd also blow the whole 'organic' thing out of the water. I mean, if you dismissed EK at 3rd, because of a concern 9+ levels down the road.

It's almost like EKs aren't really like mini-wizards at all, they just happen to use the same spell list..

That's a pretty big 'just.' The Wizard's spell list has more unique (wizard-only) spells than that of any other primary caster, and the wizard is all about casting, so that's a lot of it's identity. And the other issues don't seem like not-wizard, so much as lesser-wizard.

Much lesser, sure, but then the EK is also a very capable fighter. It just seems like an obvious option for a fighter with some arcane training.

Now, if the EK only had 16 spells on his list, and they were all 1st level, and only 3 of them were on the wizard's list, then it might start to look not much like a wizard, even a much lesser wizard.

Let me know if you need more good reasons. I can try and dig up the less obvious ones.

Actually the simple 'the possibility of studying magic hadn't come up at that point, so he just went BM' reason sounded sufficient. Thanks for the offer, though.

It sounds like the EK, because it represents a commitment of sorts that must be made at 3rd level, and can't be un-done or doubled-down on, isn't 'organic' the way 3.x style MCing is. The Fighter 4 who takes one of wizard could take the next 6 levels as wizard, or never take a wizard level again, or take a level of rouge, depending on the experiences he has going forward.
I guess I can see that.