Class Compendium Feats and Weaponmaster is out!

[Riastlin]

Consider though, which characters would use exclusively holy symbols for attacks.

Clerics and Vampires.

Paladin's would also need to use a weapon for most of their attacks. Avengers as well. Anything else needs to be hybrid or multiclassed into one of those classes to get access to implements. So, outside of two classes, you aren't really using the weapon repeatedly, and the vampire is one of the few that would actually get involved in melee. Giving enemies a situational -2 to their attacks against you (and denying them access to some of their striker damage) is good, but increasing forced movement is nothing to sneeze at either.

Heavy blade expertise ... yeah, that one kind of sucks. But then again heavy blades are pretty much the easiest weapon to pick up because of their +3 prof and other feat support. The Axe one is also pretty lame, especially with three axes being brutal anyway. The bonus to damage ones are pretty good, and they do fit the people most likely to use them (rogues like light blades and c/a, spears tend to be part of charge builds, and at least assassin's and vampires thematically target bloodied enemies, if not as good a fit for monk's).

Part of the equation is that weapon choice for most classes isn't decided for you, but implements are less so. So the benefit for the weapons are probably not as strong as the implement ones in general.

Oh I definitely get that, don't get me wrong. It still seems though that even if more or less restricted to two classes, the feat seems pretty strong. Consider conditions like stunned, dazed, flanked, prone, etc. will not grant CA either if I am reading it correctly (though stunned at least would likely start inflicting it once the character's turn comes up since he or she could not act).

Also, isn't the holy avenger considered a holy symbol? I believe this would allow pallys to get around it (realizing of course that we are talking about an epic level rare item). Cunning bards could also have a field day with this by using the Star of Corellon, and multiclassing isn't exactly a burden for bards.

The point about weapons vs. implements is interesting though and something to consider.

 

[Zaran]

If you are a ritual caster, the ability to get some rituals mastered for free, including some you pick up at higher levels, could be useful. And you don't necessarily need to pick up all three feats. Grabbing the level 1 pyromancy feature is good enough, as it gets you the ignore all fire resist. For 2 feats you are able to pick up the level 5 summoning power from HoS and get a 'permanent' summoned buddy.

My problem is I feel like there is build disparity between the Mage and the "Arcanist" Wizard. It does make me feel like they are trying to force us to move to Essentials by making it more advantagous to do so. But I will hold further griping until the Arcanist is put out to see if they actually made the two builds more simular.

 

[WalterKovacs]

My problem is I feel like there is build disparity between the Mage and the "Arcanist" Wizard. It does make me feel like they are trying to force us to move to Essentials by making it more advantagous to do so. But I will hold further griping until the Arcanist is put out to see if they actually made the two builds more simular.

For the most part, I think the feats are sort of patches, basically along the lines of "I currently have a wizard, but I want to be a mage, but I don't want to rebuild my character from level one". And, a hybrid wizard can, for example, get access to a school, since you can't actually build a hybrid mage. Similarly, I think a paragon multiclassed character can get access to implement mastery.

For a normal wizard, if you want a school, going mage is the best option. However with hybrid/multiclassed wizards, you don't have that option ... now there is a way to do it.

 

[hbnetto]

and now u can get all that necromancy spells

 

[Mika]

I agree. 3 feats plus giving up your implement mastery is an extremely steep cost, especially considering 2 of your heroic feats are probably taken up with expertise and either unarmored Agility or Leather Armor as it is. Why not just be a Mage...

These feats only make sense for hybrid wizards -- and that is assuming that they never come up with a separate hybrid mage.

Otherwise, they would only be of interest to a player who has been playing a wizard since before Heroes of the Fallen Lands came out and who for some reason does not want to do a complete rebuild of his character into a mage.

 

[Destil]

Oh I definitely get that, don't get me wrong. It still seems though that even if more or less restricted to two classes, the feat seems pretty strong. Consider conditions like stunned, dazed, flanked, prone, etc. will not grant CA either if I am reading it correctly (though stunned at least would likely start inflicting it once the character's turn comes up since he or she could not act).

Also, isn't the holy avenger considered a holy symbol? I believe this would allow pallys to get around it (realizing of course that we are talking about an epic level rare item). Cunning bards could also have a field day with this by using the Star of Corellon, and multiclassing isn't exactly a burden for bards.

The point about weapons vs. implements is interesting though and something to consider.

Axe really isn't bad mathematically, just not sexy. Heavy blade should add an extra +1 to OAs as well or something, yeah.

Any holy symbol class that wants this should be able to take Uncanny Dodge instead at paragon and not rely on hitting with powers that generally provoke anyway. The main bonus would be holy symbol expertise prevents the extra damage riders of monsters that key off combat advantage, while Uncanny Dodge just negates the +2 bonus.

Really, I don't know why they just don't make holy symbols work like ki focuses right out of the box (and I hope they do so, time to go post in the "What works, what doesn't thread on the official forums). Every holy symbol class uses weapons, it would help a lot of issues.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Unless I'm just misreading it, as long as you hit, you'll only grant CA if the power you use specifically imposes that on you.

I'm with you but you are misreading it! The PC becomes anti-CA when they attack--not hit. That makes it really nice for a Vampire whose majority of powers are melee 1 or close blast/bursts.

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Any holy symbol class that wants this should be able to take Uncanny Dodge instead at paragon and not rely on hitting with powers that generally provoke anyway. The main bonus would be holy symbol expertise prevents the extra damage riders of monsters that key off combat advantage, while Uncanny Dodge just negates the +2 bonus.

Uncanny Dodge's Wis 15 prerequisite could be tough for some Vampires to get. Plus you're missing out on the +1 to attacks that HSExpertise gives you.

Really, I don't know why they just don't make holy symbols work like ki focuses right out of the box (and I hope they do so, time to go post in the "What works, what doesn't thread on the official forums). Every holy symbol class uses weapons, it would help a lot of issues.

Good solution!

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'm with you but you are misreading it! The PC becomes anti-CA when they attack--not hit. That makes it really nice for a Vampire whose majority of powers are melee 1 or close blast/bursts.

The vampire has an interesting decision in that regard as he can improve his striker damage with the ki focus (which, since it's for 3 striker classes makes sense), or he can boost his defenses with the holy symbol expertise. The vampire (and the death domain cleric) are implement guys who may end up getting flanked frequently and would like the protection. And the vampire would especially like to avoid getting hit with striker bonus damage from monsters.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Exactly. I think it'd be better to have the more staying power for the Vampire what with their low number of surges but I haven't seen one played so that's just my gut.

 

[Zaran]

People keep bringing up the fact that axe expertise is a lame feat. Is this because the axes with the brutal property are not in essentials? We have to realize that all of essentials was made to work without any other books. If the feat doesn't work with adventure vault weapons the current 4e devs won't really care when it works great with the axes in the heroes books.