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Class Compendium Official Announcement

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
To "replace" the PHB 1 with the new books I would need to buy at least 3 books and it wouldn't even be completely replaced. So no, I don't think anyone will be apologizing.

Thats an issues with the the WotCies, not me!

Well- it's a little early to say you were right isn't it?


I mean if I mkae a fighter with Daily powers from the origginal PHB, or from the new compendium, and you can't tell them apart... what difference does it make?

(More then likely it would be made in the CB anyway...)

Only a little.

Other people made new core books a 4.x litmus test.

My issue is just the denial (including the official sort) that has surrounded all this. At some point, when they have updated the rules and reissued the rules and options in new books with new formats...you will have a new "version" at the least.
 

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Mercurius

Legend
I think your signature has it right, TerraDave: Essentials is 4.25, not 4.5, but not 4.0.2 or whatever some have said. It is not 4.5 because one does not "have to" buy the new books to be compatible with future products, but it is (at least) 4.25 in that they are coming out with a new line that includes both re-formatting and some new bits.

In that sense, Essentials may be more comparable to the 2E Revised books. What I find a little irking is that rather than just come out with a revised, expanded, and errata-ed PHB--which I'd gladly buy--they are splitting up the PHB into multiple books: 3-4 at this point, depending upon what you are willing to count (the two Heroes books, the Rules Compendium, and Class Compendium).

This is one of the reasons why I kind of chuckle when people say what a great bargain the digest books are: "350 pages for $20!" First of all, that's 350 pages of about 60% the text of a hardcover book, so the comparable value would be the amount of info of a $30 hardcover, not a $35 or $40 book. Second of all, you're getting a lot of old stuff in new garb. Yes, a $20 digest book is better value, but we haven't seen anything yet that is truly new. Yet.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
But here's the thing, Mercurius... I don't think WotC wants you to buy the books. What they want is for you to subscribe to DDI.

Publishing a hardcover Revised Player's Handbook might be wonderful for those small amounts of people who can only play the game if they have a solid dead-tree book in front of them (but who doesn't want to have the old one and a stack of printer paper with the errata printed out). But there aren't enough of those people to justify the printing, shipping, and shelf space cost to give them what they want. As far as I think WotC probably feels... like Spengler says, 'Print is dead.'

The monthly subscription fee is a much better (for them) economic model than printing books and then hoping against hope that people buy them. Now if they HAVE to do it... they're doing it a more economical way by going the softcover route. They probably wish they didn't have to do it at all... but if they had to, this was cheaper for them to do. And on top of that... by spreading things out the way they are... it's like they are trying to DARE you to switch to DDI. "Yeah, fine, we'll print revisions to some of the stuff in the Player's Handbook I if you really want it... but we can't include everything, and wouldn't you be happier getting a DDI subscription where you CAN get everything, PLUS a character builder, monster building, two magazines and an online database of rules? Wouldn't that be a better idea? You sure you don't want to do that?"
 

Scribble

First Post
I think your signature has it right, TerraDave: Essentials is 4.25, not 4.5, but not 4.0.2 or whatever some have said. It is not 4.5 because one does not "have to" buy the new books to be compatible with future products, but it is (at least) 4.25 in that they are coming out with a new line that includes both re-formatting and some new bits.

Eh... I don't know.

I mean reformatting sure, and some new bits sure... But Have any of the changes wrought by Essentials really forced anything in the game to b re-worked to exist per RAW?

Maybe I'm missing something?

For instance Magic Items gained a keyword and you can no longer buy/craft some of them. But their power level didn't change, so if you character just keeps on keepin on with the ones he has- it's not against RAW.

A new type of Fighter is introduced, but nothing about it changed the one that currently exists.

Even if they re-format the old fighter into essentials book format, I'm thinking all that means is re-arranging the layout, not the rules.

What I'm getting at is for me, an edition change really has to force my old stuff to be re-worked for it to still be relevant. Nohing brought on by Essentials seems to have done that..

I guess the argument can be made that all the various rules updates end up equaling a .whatever edition... But then that b rings me to my other thought:

Since 4e exists as sort of two layers... An underlying "everyone is effected by these rules" system, and then the parts that "hook on" IE only people who use this part are effected by these rules... Only changes to the underlying system amount to much of an effect on the game.

And if you look at those changes I think we'd be only at like 4.01 at most... and that's just silly. :p

In that sense, Essentials may be more comparable to the 2E Revised books. What I find a little irking is that rather than just come out with a revised, expanded, and errata-ed PHB--which I'd gladly buy--they are splitting up the PHB into multiple books: 3-4 at this point, depending upon what you are willing to count (the two Heroes books, the Rules Compendium, and Class Compendium).

Yeah they changed the format of the books. Shrug. I was annoyed when campaign settings changed from boxed sets to hardbacks. Stuff happens. :p

This is one of the reasons why I kind of chuckle when people say what a great bargain the digest books are: "350 pages for $20!" First of all, that's 350 pages of about 60% the text of a hardcover book, so the comparable value would be the amount of info of a $30 hardcover, not a $35 or $40 book. Second of all, you're getting a lot of old stuff in new garb. Yes, a $20 digest book is better value, but we haven't seen anything yet that is truly new. Yet.

For us- not that great of a bargain. For new players- it can be. If you're a gotta get them all- type player it probably won't be...

I think once the new stuff starts coming out in this format we'll see the bargains too.
 

Ryujin

Legend
I have to agree with DEFCON 1. The dream of any compnay, not just game publishers, is a steady revenue stream. Game publishers usually receive only sporadic income, usually when they release a new product or update. The idea of having a monthly subscription for content tends to result in a steady revenue stream as many people, myself included, will tend to look for the discount rate from an annual subscription.
 

abyssaldeath

First Post
My issue is just the denial (including the official sort) that has surrounded all this. At some point, when they have updated the rules and reissued the rules and options in new books with new formats...you will have a new "version" at the least.
That's probably true, but I've always thought of 4e as a "living" edition since the beginning. So, 4e version .whatever doesn't really matter to me as long as it stays 4e at it's core.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
One part of the news thing I found interesting was:

" feats that allow the original class builds and the new class builds to work together. It also features more feats, rituals, and rules for multiclassing."

Multiclassing with stuff like the Essential martial classes was something I had been wondering about, so that is definitely something new.

For the most part, the rules compendium and class compendium seem to be mostly a consolidated and reformated collection of stuff that originally was in a number of different sources (Players Handbook, Dragon Mag, X Power, Errata, etc) all in one spot. Someone that already had all three PHBs, the DMG and access to the web for errata would already know all he rules in the Rules Compendium, but they wouldnèt be in a single easy to carry around and easy to skim through book. If they were going to reprint something like the PHB anyway, why stick to the original format (in which case you would have to either increase the size of the book to include all the new rules that came after, or just leave them out requiring a reprint of PHB2, PHB3, DMG1 and DMG2, and Martial Power, Martial Power 2, Arcane Power, etc, etc, etc ...) when the resulting book will either be completely different than it was originally and be more or less incomplete and inconvenient.

There are a lot of rules out there in many different books ... in reissuing the rules (including the existing errata), it just makes sense to reorginize it. Put all the class neutral rules together in the rules compendium, and then have books dedicated to including all the rules for a specific class that spans their original phb, and any additional builds from X power, dragon and campaign settings, etc ...
 

Mercurius

Legend
But here's the thing, Mercurius... I don't think WotC wants you to buy the books. What they want is for you to subscribe to DDI.

Publishing a hardcover Revised Player's Handbook might be wonderful for those small amounts of people who can only play the game if they have a solid dead-tree book in front of them (but who doesn't want to have the old one and a stack of printer paper with the errata printed out). But there aren't enough of those people to justify the printing, shipping, and shelf space cost to give them what they want. As far as I think WotC probably feels... like Spengler says, 'Print is dead.'

As an aside, at first I thought you meant Oswald Spengler and I thought, "Wow, that's an obscure reference," but then I realized that "print is dead" would have been a bit premature for OS, so I googled the quote, thinking maybe you mean Marshall McLuhan. Then I realized you were talking about Ghostbusters! LOL.

The monthly subscription fee is a much better (for them) economic model than printing books and then hoping against hope that people buy them. Now if they HAVE to do it... they're doing it a more economical way by going the softcover route. They probably wish they didn't have to do it at all... but if they had to, this was cheaper for them to do. And on top of that... by spreading things out the way they are... it's like they are trying to DARE you to switch to DDI. "Yeah, fine, we'll print revisions to some of the stuff in the Player's Handbook I if you really want it... but we can't include everything, and wouldn't you be happier getting a DDI subscription where you CAN get everything, PLUS a character builder, monster building, two magazines and an online database of rules? Wouldn't that be a better idea? You sure you don't want to do that?"

Anyhow, back to topic, I hear you. I'm probably one of those consumers that they don't like: I purchase a one month subscription to DDI every six months to a year, get all the updates, download Dragon magazines, then unsubscribe. I pay $10-20 a year on DDI, and thus don't have to buy the Power books.

But what makes sense to me is that WotC would focus on getting people to subscribe to DDI, perhaps through having different brackets of subscription, a "Platinum" for $20 a month and all content, a "Gold" for $10 a month and what we have now, and a "Silver" for $5 a month and more limited use; they would also have more exclusive content, content that Platinum subscribers get right away, Gold has to wait a month, Silver longer. And perhaps there would be no need to print books like Arcane Power 6, or maybe only as a digest book.

But even in that model there would still be room for hardcovers. Maybe even they could institutionalize revised versions every few years to include errata, updated info, etc.


Eh... I don't know.

I mean reformatting sure, and some new bits sure... But Have any of the changes wrought by Essentials really forced anything in the game to b re-worked to exist per RAW?

Again, I'm not saying 4.5 but 4.25, thus the one criteria being filled but not the other (which is what you are asking for).

To put it another way, I think there are two criteria that must be fulfilled for a line or revision to be a genuine ".5" edition: One, there has to be a new line of books, new printings, revisions, errata-ed, etc; basically, new product that looks slightly to moderately different. Two, there has to be some degree of severance with the ".0" edition that makes backwards compatibility problematic (although I would say that many people that complained about 3.5 overstated its incompatibility with 3E; I've heard of plenty of folks using 3E PHBs with 3.5 splats). So a .5 requires some degree of conversion, but not as much as an entirely new edition.

What I am saying is that Essentials fulfills the first but not the second. In some ways I am reminded of tricks Marvel and other comic companies used to play (and probably still do, but it has been 15+ years since I collected), with variant covers, endings, extras in different versions of the same issue, etc. Or CDs with "special editions" that have an extra song. What WotC has done with Essentials is take old material, add a bit of new stuff, and re-package and re-format it so that it is close enough to 4E not to be needed to play and thus piss people off, but just far enough that many 4E players will be tempted to buy it.

If nothing else I can say, well played, WotC - you'll make some money off of this; you've already made some off of me. But will it work in the long run? That remains to be seen.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
When some of us said that the PHB was going to be replaced a few months back, oh the insults, mockery, and, well, general disagreement that followed.

But I am sure that everyone out there will apologize.

This is not anything like the same thing. I am part of that group that would like to see the PHB replrinted, in hardcover, with not only erratta, but also improvements to the classes to bring them up to PHBII and III levels.

Not that I ever expect it. Eratta, maybe.

I'll be waiting for your apology :)
 

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