Class Skills

Markn

First Post
Does anyone know if there are any good reasons why some classes in 4e only get 3 skills while others get up to 6 skills?

Is this a form of balancing the classes? If so, how does this balance it?

Basically, I am thinking of tweaking the skill system and I am trying to determine the effect it has on the game/class balance.

Thanks.
 

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Does anyone know if there are any good reasons why some classes in 4e only get 3 skills while others get up to 6 skills?

But to answer, I see only one class (maybe artificer, I don't have that book) that got 3, most get one skill plus 3 choices. The roogue gets six, so the variation is from 3-6 and mostly 4-6, not really a whole not, not like 3.5 where it was from 2 to 8 and intelligence could make it more or less, the dumb fighter and the clever rogue going from 1-11 or more.

Is this a form of balancing the classes? If so, how does this balance it?

Maybe it is, but is more likely a holdover form older versions of D&D. Mostly the same classes are getting more skills. There might be some minor balancing going on there, but it is probably a very very minor part of balancing.

Basically, I am thinking of tweaking the skill system and I am trying to determine the effect it has on the game/class balance.
Thanks.

As I said before, I think it is minimal, but does give the class a bit more out of combat presence.
 

But to answer, I see only one class (maybe artificer, I don't have that book) that got 3, most get one skill plus 3 choices. The roogue gets six, so the variation is from 3-6 and mostly 4-6, not really a whole not, not like 3.5 where it was from 2 to 8 and intelligence could make it more or less, the dumb fighter and the clever rogue going from 1-11 or more.

Artificer gets more than 3, so I think there is only the 1 class with 3 skills.



Maybe it is, but is more likely a holdover form older versions of D&D. Mostly the same classes are getting more skills. There might be some minor balancing going on there, but it is probably a very very minor part of balancing.


That's my thinking too, however, with all the brainpower that went into examing every facet of 4e, I would have to think that they gave skill allocation some consideration as well. If they left it, there must be SOME reason for it.

As for why I posted here instead of the 4e forum, this thread was inspired from a few other threads on non-combat rules and silo-ing. it got me thinking, what could be done to tweak 4e to improve the skill system, to encourage the use of more skills in the game by everyone instead of certain classes always falling back on the same skill over and over. Another reason for this thinking, is that I have 2 types of players in my games - the ones who build well rounded characters while still being effective in combat and the combat uber specialist who finds skill challenges terrible due to his limited skill availability. I'd rather not debate the merits of either style but want to improve the game play experience.

So here is what I am thinking -

All classes (with the exception of the rogue) gets 4 skills. The rogue gets 5 just because he's special. If the class has a bonus skill, like Religion for the Avenger or Cleric, that has to be 1 of his 4 choices. Then, the player gets to choose 3 more, any 3. There are no limitations.

In addition, the following changes would be made:

Skills that normally appear on your class skill list automatically give +1 to that skill whether you are trained or not. This is to represent that that class generally has seen practice with those skills. So a fighter gets +1 on Athletics whether he is trained or not.

All bonuses from ability scores are worth only half. Therefore, if you have an 18, you only get +2 instead of the regular plus 4.

I'm considering training only giving a bonus of 4 instead of 5.


The point of all this, is to open up skills available and to lower the curve from bad skills to good skills, so everyone still has a chance to succeed, whether they are good or not.

Anyone see any issues with this?

Edit - One other goal is to stick to 4e as close as possible since we all use the Character Builder. This allows us to keep using it, just editing the numbers after the printout which is pretty minor in the overall scheme of things.
 
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In my experience, a simple explanation usually suffices.

Without it the classes would have seemed similar and uniform.

As simplicity goes, I believe that will trump just about any rival explanation.
 

Does anyone know if there are any good reasons why some classes in 4e only get 3 skills while others get up to 6 skills?
Good reason? Not IMHO. I really can't explain the lack of skills for Fighter and Barbarian, unless the designers just plain forgot about siloing, and especially combined with the class skill lists it has a tendency to make skill challenges a lot less fun.

Artificer gets more than 3, so I think there is only the 1 class with 3 skills.
Fighter and Barbarian get 3; the vast majority get 1 fixed + 3 more (or just 4 choices, in some cases). Bard , Artificer, Warlord, & Ranger get 1 + 4, Rogue gets 2 + 4.
 


In my experience, a simple explanation usually suffices.

Without it the classes would have seemed similar and uniform.

As simplicity goes, I believe that will trump just about any rival explanation.

Maybe.

I wouldn't think so though, based on the grounds that in 4e all classes use the same mechanics (to date) such as At Will/Encounter/Daily yet the theme of each class is very different. I'm sure they could have done the same thing to the skill system. Each class could get 4 skills to train in but differentiate it using some other method - perhaps as a static bonus to class skills or some such.

My point is, I think they could have done something to not make them feel uniform so I would have to think there is some other reason for that.
 

Yeah it is a crap piece of holdover from previous editions, the classes are aimed to be equal inside of combat but they forgot to balance them outside, esp skill challenges. Should be flat 1+4 or so, for all classes. But now it is stuck in the system sadly.
 

Some classes get more because they get the "every member will take these, might as well give them out for free" ones.

Rogues get Stealth and Thievery, but they also *need* Acrobatics, Streetwise, Perception and Athletics to do the traditional rogue things (climb walls, walk tightropes, have contacts in the criminal underworld, find and disable traps, etc).
 

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