Class Skills
- Thread starter Markn
- Start date
Gort
Explorer
Agreed. It's because certain skills are effectively "class features" that other classes can take with a bit of jiggery-pokery (feats, etc)
MichaelSomething
Legend
I thought there were utility powers that did that. I don't have the PHB but I do remember the Rouge having some powers that require/enhance skills.
Thanks for the feeback everyone.
So let me change the question a bit - I've been somewhat inspired by the siloing thread.
How would you seperate the skills into its own silo? Asssuming skills had no affect on combat (skill powers for example), also assuming that skills are generally used for roleplaying (non combat) what could be done to make this portion of the game more even amongst the classes? I had one idea that I mentioned above. Are there better ways?
Lets hear them.
So let me change the question a bit - I've been somewhat inspired by the siloing thread.
How would you seperate the skills into its own silo? Asssuming skills had no affect on combat (skill powers for example), also assuming that skills are generally used for roleplaying (non combat) what could be done to make this portion of the game more even amongst the classes? I had one idea that I mentioned above. Are there better ways?
Lets hear them.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I'm having a hard time believing that the skill differential is a hold-over from 3e that they simply overlooked. There are too many exacting and fiddly overhauls of the game system to make that a very plausible explanation. I would be open to the differential being a mistaken design decision for a variety of reasons, including other factors that may have been edited out in the final publication, but not simply a holdover.
Dice4Hire
First Post
In a lot of ways (at least to me) 4E is a development form 3.5, and I see no reason why it should not have things that are holdovers form the previous edition. The classes are the same or similar names, skills are similar, why not skill allocations? If it does not hurt 4E or limit it in some way, I can see the value of making decisions based solely on nostalgia. Or largely on nostalgia
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Except that nostalgia doesn't fit most of the other decisions in 4e. In fact, there are a lot of decisions that seem to be deliberately away from nostalgia. So it seems to me that this element of 4e, if it's either a holdover or a bit of nostalgia, would be WAY out of character for the edition. That's why my guess is there's a difference in skills for some other unstated reason.
Perhaps they made a change, but decided it was not effective and didn't have much time to try a new system out. Rather than release something with potential huge flaws, they reverted back to something far more familar.
I get your point though, if they were going to look at every other facet of 4e, its hard to imagine that they didn't do that for skills.
I get your point though, if they were going to look at every other facet of 4e, its hard to imagine that they didn't do that for skills.
Starfox
Hero
I used to think skills in 4E should be evened out, but practical experience proved this wrong.
Skills in 4E are not really in their own silo. They use the same resource to lean as other abilities (feats), and the skill list is made so that many skills have combat or at least adventure uses.
The rogue depends on skills like Bluff, Athletics and Acrobatics to perform his class functions. Hist 2 extra skills are not really a bonus, its more of a prerequisite to make many of his powers feasible.
And, in the final cut, what matters is not so much class skills as ability scores. A low-Int fighter can never compete with a high-Int Wizard at Arcana but most likely beats him at Athletics every time at epic levels, even unskilled. This gives a much stronger tie between class and skills than class skills do.
Skills in 4E are not really in their own silo. They use the same resource to lean as other abilities (feats), and the skill list is made so that many skills have combat or at least adventure uses.
The rogue depends on skills like Bluff, Athletics and Acrobatics to perform his class functions. Hist 2 extra skills are not really a bonus, its more of a prerequisite to make many of his powers feasible.
And, in the final cut, what matters is not so much class skills as ability scores. A low-Int fighter can never compete with a high-Int Wizard at Arcana but most likely beats him at Athletics every time at epic levels, even unskilled. This gives a much stronger tie between class and skills than class skills do.
I would imagine any balancing of classes that involved the Skills list was probably only really effective when the PH1 was ther only resource available. At that point, with a much smaller Feats list (especially for feats that were applicable to certain classes)... using a feat on either Skill Training or Skill Focus was actually a viable (or in some cases only) choice. Thus, with that kind of expectation of supplementation, aligning the number of skills a class had to the overall class features was probably thought upon at least a small bit.
However, with the influx of all these feats from all these new sources available... there seems to be always something better or more useful to take than the feats that enhance skills. Thus, the idea of using the number of skills as a balancing class factor has gone by the wayside.
But I would have to say that all is not lost... because Backgrounds have now taken the Feat's place as a way to enchance a PC's skill list. You now get to customize your character slightly more, by gaining an extra +2 to an existing skill or a new skill to add to your skill list. They just aren't AS effective as using feats though, since the Skill Focus feat gives you an additional +3 (instead of +2), and Skill Training gives you an extra Trained Skill (whereas the Background only adds a skill to your skill list, but your number of trained skills remains the same).
However, with the influx of all these feats from all these new sources available... there seems to be always something better or more useful to take than the feats that enhance skills. Thus, the idea of using the number of skills as a balancing class factor has gone by the wayside.
But I would have to say that all is not lost... because Backgrounds have now taken the Feat's place as a way to enchance a PC's skill list. You now get to customize your character slightly more, by gaining an extra +2 to an existing skill or a new skill to add to your skill list. They just aren't AS effective as using feats though, since the Skill Focus feat gives you an additional +3 (instead of +2), and Skill Training gives you an extra Trained Skill (whereas the Background only adds a skill to your skill list, but your number of trained skills remains the same).
