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they wanted one thing and voted in a way that WotC interprets differently from that. That is what I meant by voting wrong, you failed to communicate your intent to WotC under the parameters established by WotC

It is not representative, agreed, but it shows that there is a disconnect . Also, it could be more than just one out of 10, they were the only one actually saying what they wanted and how they voted.

If you want to go on pretending that things are just fine, there should not have been any issue in a sample size of 10
It does not show there is a disconnect if it's representative of nothing. A survey of thousands and thousands is not something you can make any judgement at all about with a sample of 10.

But come on, you know that. Are you arguing just to argue now?

I mean if you're premise is "The survey is fatally flawed and nothing can convince me otherwise," then OK. No need to make an absurd argument of "I found someone who I think voted wrong therefore the entire thing is rife with a disconnect in how voters are voting!"
 

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they wanted one thing and voted in a way that WotC interprets differently from that. That is what I meant by voting wrong, you failed to communicate your intent to WotC under the parameters established by WotC

It is not representative, agreed, but it shows that there is a disconnect . Also, it could be more than just one out of 10, they were the only one actually saying what they wanted and how they voted.

If you want to go on pretending that things are just fine, there should not have been any issue in a sample size of 10
While I agree with most of what you wrote here, the last sentence is incorrect.

Let's say there's a poll of 1000 people and you get 90% approval and 10% disapproval. That's 1 in 10 that has an issue. Your sample size of 10 could easily show that 1 person's problem. However, the reason why 10 people isn't nearly good enough for a poll is that it's super easy to get 10 out of 10 with no issue when pulling just 10 out of that 1000. You could also fairly easily get 2 or 3 of that 10 as having an issue.

That's why small numbers aren't considered representative and you need like 1000+ in polls to be considered accurate. Even then there's a +/- 5% margin of error.
 

It does not show there is a disconnect if it's representative of nothing. A survey of thousands and thousands is not something you can make any judgement at all about with a sample of 10.
That is how quality control works. If you have ten thousand lightbulbs and one out of 10 randomly selected ones does not actually light up, you have a quality problem that should be investigated. Same here.

But come on, you know that. Are you arguing just to argue now?
no, I argue because I have a point
 

While I agree with most of what you wrote here, the last sentence is incorrect.

Let's say there's a poll of 1000 people and you get 90% approval and 10% disapproval. That's 1 in 10 that has an issue. Your sample size of 10 could easily show that 1 person's problem. However, the reason why 10 people isn't nearly good enough for a poll is that it's super easy to get 10 out of 10 with no issue when pulling just 10 out of that 1000. You could also fairly easily get 2 or 3 of that 10 as having an issue.

That's why small numbers aren't considered representative and you need like 1000+ in polls to be considered accurate. Even then there's a +/- 5% margin of error.
I am not saying it is representative and can be extrapolated, for that the sample size is too small, but it is indicative of a problem that needs investigating. See also my reply just before.
 

They are just as valid as any other customer. And no, I did not mention DMs. And there was no sneaky "I didn't see it" I literally didn't mention DMs. Saying their views is as valid as "you" is not saying their view is anything relative to "All primary DMs." But it is another instance where you're making this a personal discussion, in a weird an strangely egotistical way. In fact it's so weird that you would read the word "You" as "All DMs in the world" that I am starting to wonder if this conversation can be productive.
You are literally tried to exclude GMs from referring to how the process being used takes steps to make their feedback & concerns less "valid" as what we are calling the munchkin brigade. Every single playtest packet survey except maybe the first where there were no classes in it has included a question along the lines of "have you played x class in 5e" or "have you played X class in any version of d&d". not one single packet has had a survey question that made any effort to identify GMs. That right there is one group being explicitly more equal than another no matter how you try to spin it.
Also why do you keep using the term GM when for D&D that's not the term?
It's strange that you would choose this sidequest to break from the constant efforts to provide cover for the flaws in this process through attempting to dismiss discredit & divert criticism across so many threads. You won't find the ammunition you might have been expecting in the simple fact that GM plays more nicely with autocorrect autocomplete & spellcheck than "the term". Since you didn't mention it though I assume you meant the term with a serial number of 74264094 & registration number of 1815460? If so, there is your answer.
Yes, the munchkins are as valid as any other consumer of D&D books, including primary DMs. You think you're making a persuasive point when you're not. It's like you keep repeating "Vanilla is better than Chocolate and everyone agrees!" as if that's some objective statement when it's not. WOTC should not discount any of their consumers, unless those consumers literally don't care about what they put out.
You've lost sight of the ball. The munchkin brigade voting against any slight to power came up because of your earlier claim that wotc lowers the veto threshold by padding the breakpoint for approval to correct for responders who will vote positively for anything at all. The GM needs to consider all of the players at the table & can be expected to have a good probability of voting for healthier options a reasonable percentage of the time rather than the more selfish ones of respondents that are exclusively players & only interested in their own power. Correcting for the distortions is responsible polling when those distortions are caused by their own weighting & not about "discounting" anyone.
 

That is how quality control works. If you have ten thousand lightbulbs and one out of 10 randomly selected ones does not actually light up, you have a quality problem that should be investigated. Same here.
LOL what?

Are you trolling me now, that if you find one person who makes a mistake it means the whole thing is suspect? You gotta be trolling me. But why? What would be the point of trolling me, or anyone, on ENWorld with something as absurd as what you just said?
 

LOL what?

Are you trolling me now, that if you find one person who makes a mistake it means the whole thing is suspect? You gotta be trolling me. But why? What would be the point of trolling me, or anyone, on ENWorld with something as absurd as what you just said?
In a sample size of 10, absolutely. If I can find one in 10 already, how good do you think this thing actually is? Unless you have a much larger sample, you have nothing, so that would be the first step in this case, except that we cannot take it. That does not make you right though. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If anything, we have some evidence for a problem already, all you have to offer right now is incredulity.
 
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You are literally tried to exclude GMs from referring to how the process being used
I literally said everyone, and never mentioned GMs. You've fabricated a strawman. GMs are part of everyone.


takes steps to make their feedback & concerns less "valid" as what we are calling the munchkin brigade. Every single playtest packet survey except maybe the first where there were no classes in it has included a question along the lines of "have you played x class in 5e" or "have you played X class in any version of d&d". not one single packet has had a survey question that made any effort to identify GMs. That right there is one group being explicitly more equal than another no matter how you try to spin it.
IF you are are GM where that class was playtested, you have just engaged in a playtest of that class. It's a neutral question. It's not tailored to the player. Nobody is more equal than another. GMs are not being oppressed or dismissed by the playtest. In fact, the instructions under "How to Playtest This UA" talk about DMs and creating your own adventure for the purpose of playtesting.

It's strange that you would choose this sidequest to break from the constant efforts to provide cover for the flaws in this process through attempting to dismiss discredit & divert criticism across so many threads.
I am absolutely not dismissing or discrediting criticism. I have my own criticism. But when you make a public post here on a message board intended for a back and for conversation, you don't get to complain about getting feedback on what you're saying.

You've lost sight of the ball. The munchkin brigade voting against any slight to power came up because of your earlier claim that wotc lowers the veto threshold by padding the breakpoint for approval to correct for
Yes, that was me. That, because someone might like both the old and new rule exactly equally and exactly as favorably, it is no harm to those people's views to assume that maybe you need to pad to account for that. You were saying some votes should be dismissed which WOULD harm the views of those voters and I explained how that's a different situation - dismissing voices who care about their view being heard is not the same as dismissing those who suffer no harm from it and are fine with it.

responders who will vote positively for anything at all. The GM needs to consider all of the players at the table & can be expected to have a good probability of voting for healthier options a reasonable percentage of the time rather than the more selfish ones of respondents that are exclusively players & only interested in their own power.
That's you putting your ethical view on other people inappropriately. No, you as a DM do not have a more important voice that others who consume this product. But EVEN IF YOU DID (which you do not) it would still be wrong to split it not between "DM vs Player" but instead between "DM vs a specific type of player you personally don't like." There is absolutely nothing objectively good or righteous or just about your view. It's you saying your view is objectively better than the views of others for no reason other than it's you.
Correcting for the distortions is responsible polling when those distortions are caused by their own weighting & not about "discounting" anyone.
No, it's deeply irresponsible to assume a type of player's views is a "distortion" because you disagree with it. You're essentially saying, "I don't like the color blue so anyone who likes the color blue should be "corrected" as a distortion because I don't like the color blue and therefore blue is a distortion." It's circular logic and has no basis in any kind of ethical view.
 

In a sample size of 10, absolutely. If I can find one in 10 already, how good do you think this thing actually is?
You've literally spelled out statistical noise and claimed it's the opposite.

ANY even merest scintilla of knowledge about statistics would have informed you that taking a random sample of 10 for a body of tends of thousands and then drawing a conclusion from one of the ten is a deeply meaningless observation. What you are doing is NOT statistics.

Unless you have a much larger sample, you have nothing, so that would be the first step in this case, except that we cannot take it. That does not make you right though. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If anything, we have some evidence for a problem already, all you have to offer right now is incredulity.
No you do not. What you're claiming as evidence is meaningless drivel.

And let me say, you agreeing you were trolling was your best possible take on this. Doubling down on it is a terrible look.
 

You've literally spelled out statistical noise and claimed it's the opposite.
You still do not understand samples and quality control. If the survey worked, there would not be such 'noise'.

ANY even merest scintilla of knowledge about statistics would have informed you that taking a random sample of 10 for a body of tends of thousands and then drawing a conclusion from one of the ten is a deeply meaningless observation. What you are doing is NOT statistics.
I did not say I was, I said it is quality control. I already said from the start that the sample is too small to extrapolate from. It is not too small to indicate an issue that should be investigated before ruling out a larger problem.

A sample size may be too small to detect the issue, but we already found it in a size of 10, so....

And let me say, you agreeing you were trolling was your best possible take on this. Doubling down on it is a terrible look.
more incredulity and insults do not help your case
 

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