D&D 5E Class Tier List 2.0, SCAG+ Xanathars

[Zardnaar]

My only question so far is, are Bards really inherently A/B tier in the 1-4 level range? Because my feeling is that, aside from Lore Bards (who get Cutting Words at 3, which is a fight-winner), at this level range, they're basically like Clerics with worse armour and no shield. They've got he same number of spells, far fewer to choose from (though I guess they do have stuff like Tasha's), weapon selection is similar - slightly better because you have rapier so if going DEX that works (but really that's 1 point ahead of the mighty Shortsword, D&D weapon of choice of so many people since the 1980s - man I must have had more characters wielding a Shortsword at L1 than any other weapon). WIS and CHA are similar in value at 1-4.

It just feels weird to me to see a Cleric getting a C rating and barely getting that, when a Bard is getting an A and I'm not sure that I really get it. I say this as a professional Bard-player too, so I generally have a pro-Bard bias (playing a Lore Bard right now and they're definitely A at L1-4 but only because of Cutting Words being like "You are NOT going to save against that!").

Once you get into 5+ I am pretty sure Bards are inherently B+ (and Lore goes to S once you start getting secrets at 6 imho) but I just wonder at this level.

It's not just spells, bard dice, sing of rest, extra skill, expertise.

Using the light cleric as an example I rated it high. That's because radiance of the dawn which is roughly a 2nd level spell. Compare with an upcast burning hands spell for example. Plus flair plus armor plus still a cleric plus great domain spells.

 

[Zardnaar]

One thing I'll say for Arcana Domain once you hit level 5 is that if you have Booming Blade, Warcaster, and are using Spirit Guardians, you get to put enemies into no-win situations and I like that. Still limited to a d6 weapon die if you want a shield, or a d8 if you go two-handed, though.

This you can also cheese an arcana cleric into getting shillelagh.

With default array you can add in warcaster and have 18 wisdom by level 8 along with 14 Dex and con.

Get an 18 via rolling (you need to roll a 17) and you have 20 wisdom and 2 feats level 8.

Any melee cleric worth a damn is using spiritual guardians which is wisdom based.

A pure caster arcana cleric with default array can use a dagger, spiritual guardians/weapons and still do alright in melee via gfb.

 

[Esker]

One thing I'll say for Arcana Domain once you hit level 5 is that if you have Booming Blade, Warcaster, and are using Spirit Guardians, you get to put enemies into no-win situations and I like that. Still limited to a d6 weapon die if you want a shield, or a d8 if you go two-handed, though.

You can already pretty much guarantee spirit guardians damage on one target per round though, since they take the damage at the start of their turn. You just have to follow them if they move. Booming blade just makes it a bit less likely that they'll take an AoO to make you chase them (but IME that doesn't happen that often anyway).

 

[Esker]

My only question so far is, are Bards really inherently A/B tier in the 1-4 level range? Because my feeling is that, aside from Lore Bards (who get Cutting Words at 3, which is a fight-winner), at this level range, they're basically like Clerics with worse armour and no shield.

I agree that bards are a class that takes awhile to pick up steam. Bardic inspiration is nice, but is too limited in uses before font of inspiration.

I think their spell list is better than the cleric list though (apart from standouts like Bless and Spiritual Weapon). At levels 1-2, Sleep is the best spell in the game. Faerie Fire is also very nice, and stays useful (though Light Clerics get that one too). Tasha's is probably the best single target spell at 1st level. Heat Metal is pretty nice at levels 3-4, when you're still facing a lot of humanoids.

And that's just the combat pillar. Bards are the champions of the social pillar.

On the other hand, if all you ever cast in tier 1 was Bless and Spiritual Weapon, you'd be doing pretty well.

I think for me, bards are the stronger class overall, but despite everything I just said, I would put clerics ahead in tier 1.

I generally have a pro-Bard bias (playing a Lore Bard right now and they're definitely A at L1-4 but only because of Cutting Words being like "You are NOT going to save against that!").

You can't apply cutting words to saves though. The lore bard would be absolutely runaway insanely good if you could.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree that bards are a class that takes awhile to pick up steam. Bardic inspiration is nice, but is too limited in uses before font of inspiration.

I think their spell list is better than the cleric list though (apart from standouts like Bless and Spiritual Weapon). At levels 1-2, Sleep is the best spell in the game. Faerie Fire is also very nice, and stays useful (though Light Clerics get that one too). Tasha's is probably the best single target spell at 1st level. Heat Metal is pretty nice at levels 3-4, when you're still facing a lot of humanoids.

And that's just the combat pillar. Bards are the champions of the social pillar.

On the other hand, if all you ever cast in tier 1 was Bless and Spiritual Weapon, you'd be doing pretty well.

I think for me, bards are the stronger class overall, but despite everything I just said, I would put clerics ahead in tier 1.



You can't apply cutting words to saves though. The lore bard would be absolutely runaway insanely good if you could.

Neither can any other bard. The lore bard still gets to use normal bard dice mechanics, they don't have to use cutting words.

 

[Esker]

Neither can any other bard. The lore bard still gets to use normal bard dice mechanics, they don't have to use cutting words.

I realize that. I wasn't commenting on the lore bard vs other bards, just pointing out a limitation of cutting words.

 

[Ashrym]

they're basically like Clerics with worse armour and no shield. They've got he same number of spells, far fewer to choose...

I would agree except bards have some solid choices in the spell list not available to clerics. Sleep has no save while a 13 DC makes a lot of spells look better than they are (until later), for example.

Which is more effective -- sleep or bless? There's a lot of opinion in a question like that. Especially given the premise of limited spell slots mentioned regarding other classes.

I would argue 1st level spells vs 1st level spells is roughly equal but applied in different areas.

they're definitely A at L1-4 but only because of Cutting Words being like "You are NOT going to save against that!").

This was already mentioned but in case anyone misses it, cutting words doesn't apply to saves.

It's not just spells, bard dice, sing of rest, extra skill, expertise.

Clerics get channel divinity and better armor matters more than +2 on from another skill or expertise in this tier, imo. And guidance says hi.

It's not like clerics don't have benefits. 3 inspiration dice per day doesn't beat 3 channel divinities based on the 2 short rest assumption.

Clerics also have more prepped spells than any other class preps or knows at a time when this is the most restricted.

Neither can any other bard. The lore bard still gets to use normal bard dice mechanics, they don't have to use cutting words.

Cutting words creates a lot more competition for those dice. So do the flourishes.

I don't agree that swords obsoletes valor except for the shield either. Valor gains martial weapon proficiency that swords does not. I can build GWM into a valor bard and not use a shield but swords is TWF or dueling without a shield.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would agree except bards have some solid choices in the spell list not available to clerics. Sleep has no save while a 13 DC makes a lot of spells look better than they are (until later), for example.

Which is more effective -- sleep or bless? There's a lot of opinion in a question like that. Especially given the premise of limited spell slots mentioned regarding other classes.

I would argue 1st level spells vs 1st level spells is roughly equal but applied in different areas.



This was already mentioned but in case anyone misses it, cutting words doesn't apply to saves.



Clerics get channel divinity and better armor matters more than +2 on from another skill or expertise in this tier, imo. And guidance says hi.

It's not like clerics don't have benefits. 3 inspiration dice per day doesn't beat 3 channel divinities based on the 2 short rest assumption.

Clerics also have more prepped spells than any other class preps or knows at a time when this is the most restricted.



Cutting words creates a lot more competition for those dice. So do the flourishes.

I don't agree that swords obsoletes valor except for the shield either. Valor gains martial weapon proficiency that swords does not. I can build GWM into a valor bard and not use a shield but swords is TWF or dueling without a shield.

A great weapon valor bard is going to inflict roughly the same amount if damage as a sword bard using dueling.

6.5 vs 7.

 

[Ashrym]

A great weapon valor bard is going to inflict roughly the same amount if damage as a sword bard using dueling.

6.5 vs 7.

I said GWM because bards have several options for bonuses or advantage. The only issue is it's a bit more MAD.

I would also take battle magic over free d6 flourishes too, although obvously not in the first tier of play.

Valor bards granting AC bonus to others is also good. It's just not a personal use of inspiration.

 

[Zardnaar]

I said GWM because bards have several options for bonuses or advantage. The only issue is it's a bit more MAD.

I would also take battle magic over free d6 flourishes too, although obvously not in the first tier of play.

Valor bards granting AC bonus to others is also good. It's just not a personal use of inspiration.

Sword bards can also do that. It's another option.

Battle Magic is level 14 iirc.

That's probably to far away.