Classes and Levels or Point buy

[wingsandsword]

I don't like classes and levels representing rigid archetypes, where your class is your societal role and what you are. I prefer a class/level system where the classes merely represent skill packages that are balanced and comprehensive. d20 Modern is pretty much perfect in this model IMO.

I'm real wary of pure skill/xp systems, I've seen them seriously abused. I've seen GURPS gravely abused in this fashion, as well as d6 Star Wars and Storyteller 1.0/Mind's Eye also horribly twisted and abused by people who focus on one thing and get it so astronomically high that they are nigh unstoppable in their role, but helpless with anything else.

With a class/level system, (for example with our normal d20) a wizard also gains some HP, saving throws (even in their poor categories), a little BAB, and skills (and probably enough that they just don't put it all into Spellcraft, Concentration and K:Arcana and can branch out a little. In a pure skill based game, they'll have the exact same amount of combat staying power and ability to avoid attacks they had at character creation, only the skills absolutely essential to their casting, and they'll progress in spellcasting much faster.

Also, it's much easier to create balanced NPC opponents and start PC's at a higher level when you're using a class/level system than pure skill/xp point buy.

Maybe, just maybe there are people out there in the real world and in fiction who are that specialized and could actually be represented by such a min-max build, but it makes for poor gaming when you've got characters who can do only one thing, do it better than everybody else can possibly do it, but can't do a dang other thing.

 

[interwyrm]

I'm real wary of pure skill/xp systems, I've seen them seriously abused. I've seen GURPS gravely abused in this fashion, as well as d6 Star Wars and Storyteller 1.0/Mind's Eye also horribly twisted and abused by people who focus on one thing and get it so astronomically high that they are nigh unstoppable in their role, but helpless with anything else.
...
Maybe, just maybe there are people out there in the real world and in fiction who are that specialized and could actually be represented by such a min-max build, but it makes for poor gaming when you've got characters who can do only one thing, do it better than everybody else can possibly do it, but can't do a dang other thing.

There are real world people who are only good at one thing, and that is a weakness. I don't think that is a flaw of such a system. In fact, I think it encourages roleplaying if you have an npc enemy who is much better than the pc's at combat, but terribly underwhelming in social skills. It forces the pc's to find unorthodox means of defeating their enemies. On the other side, if PC's specialize to such a degree, the gm should mercilessly pound each of their weaknesses until they start shoring up their shortcomings.

 

[Psion]

It doesn't have to be classes and levels, but I do require some form of structure. Free point buy has proven problematic to me.

I don't think it's a "sacred cow" at all. Structure serves a purpose.

 

[sniffles]

I like both types of systems. Point buy systems can get out of hand in my experience. I've had Hero System characters with a 3-page character sheet because they had so many skills. But the freedom to be good at anything is nice.

Level based systems help keep characters better defined, at least for me. But it can be frustrating to see your character as totally incapable of doing something just because they have no ranks and no ability modifier for that skill.

I think you can get around the limits of the skill system in D&D by allowing all skills to be class skills. When we do this, I still use the class skill list for my character class to direct me, so that I don't end up just putting one rank into everything.

 

[tetsujin28]

I'm torn, honestly. In general, I've both played and run classless & level-less games (Hero, GURPS, Runequest, 7th Sea) for most of my 28 years as a rpger. But there's a certain satisfaction in the 'power ups' you get from levels. I think the solution in Mutants & Masterminds is really elegant.

 

[interwyrm]

It doesn't have to be classes and levels, but I do require some form of structure. Free point buy has proven problematic to me.

I don't think it's a "sacred cow" at all. Structure serves a purpose.

What does structure mean? Is it good enough if it costs more to gain each new rank of each skill? Or if you can't raise your strength a certain amount above your endurance?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I find that in point buy systems I'm more interested in playing the character I have. In class/level system its all about making the next level, getting the next big thing, what my character isn't yet as opposed to what it is. Even in a low powered gurps or hero campaign, I never have that feeling. My character could improve at things slowly and naturally, but I never felt like "next level I'll get this, and then my character will look more like what I imagine!" I build my character as what I imagine, and play it.

 

[Henry]

Still classes and levels, for me. I can handle point-buy games (I play M&M, Battletech, even call of cthulhu which is sorta point-buy), but as a DM, classes and levels are easier for me to adjudicate, because I have a better idea what PC capabilities are, and even as a player, class/level allows me to build a character and not forget something vitally important to add to, because the character is by default balanced all around to an equivalent level character.

 

[Psion]

What does structure mean? Is it good enough if it costs more to gain each new rank of each skill?

That is not what I mean by structure, or at least not sufficient structure IMO.

Or if you can't raise your strength a certain amount above your endurance?

That's beginning to get there. I also more genreally like limitations on how many points you can put in categories. Still better, I like points in logical "bins" with limited expendiature accross lines. Otherwise, the D&D term "dump stat" almost morphs into "dump categories". Which I hate.

 

[GlassJaw]

We're getting ready to play in a Grim Tales game, and while I'm looking forward to it, the classes (Strong Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero, etc...*yawn*) do nothing for me.

You mean you'll actually have to *gasp* create a character concept instead of having the class define it for you?

That's exactly the reason I love GT (and the reason I like skil-based systems as well). I don't want my character to be defined by anything other than my character concept.

I would say that I prefer "generic" systems rather than a level or skill-based system specifically. GT isn't skill-based but it's generic enough so that I can create almost any concept I can dream up.