Classes and Levels or Point buy
- Thread starter interwyrm
- Start date
Psion said:
I need a little clarification on that... do you mean that you have to keep skills in the bins close to each other? Or do you mean that you can't put a whole lot of points in one bin, without putting some in others? If it's the first, I think that's a great idea, and when I finally get around to designing my rpg system, that will probably go in it.
I like the idea of classes along the lines of the generic classes from UA or the roles from Blue Rose/True 20 (though I'd prefer a point-based spellcaster to a skills & feats spellcaster). But I've never actually played something like that, so I don't know how it would work out with a GM and dice, and I defintely prefer D&D-style classes to pure point-based character construction.
Merlion
First Post
I vote for classes and levels. The idea of a more free form system seems appealing, but as with Force User, I like having a character who is definitely a certain thing (or things). It is also usualy less complicated.
That being said, I like for their to be a lot of class options, and a lot of options in terms of things like Feats, so that your class doesnt have to be a straightjacket, but rather a foundation. A good multiclassing system is nice as well.
Thats one of the reasons I stick to D&D and its offshoots despite all the things I dont like about it. The classes are varied in nature, the multiclassing system is pretty deccent especially with prestige classes figured in, and then with feats as well you can do a lot of things with a character.
Of course, its best if a lot of supplements are allowed for use in a game. Core only is a bit restrictive some times.
Getting back to the point tho...I think a class/level system that is reasonbly open and has lots of options of all types makes for a wide range of possibilities, while maintaining game balance and a real sense of character and game identity
That being said, I like for their to be a lot of class options, and a lot of options in terms of things like Feats, so that your class doesnt have to be a straightjacket, but rather a foundation. A good multiclassing system is nice as well.
Thats one of the reasons I stick to D&D and its offshoots despite all the things I dont like about it. The classes are varied in nature, the multiclassing system is pretty deccent especially with prestige classes figured in, and then with feats as well you can do a lot of things with a character.
Of course, its best if a lot of supplements are allowed for use in a game. Core only is a bit restrictive some times.
Getting back to the point tho...I think a class/level system that is reasonbly open and has lots of options of all types makes for a wide range of possibilities, while maintaining game balance and a real sense of character and game identity
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
And Ennie-nominated, at that!Crothian said:
Myself, I prefer the free-form structure for advanced players, but when I'm DMing with newer players (as seems to often be the case; I'm a 20+ year vet DM who has almost never had a group with more than half non-newbs), I prefer Class & Level.
Class & Level is simpler to use book-keeping-wise, and makes it easier to visualize "who your character is" based on his abilities.
Point-Based is harder to use book-keeping-wise, and makes it easier to shape your character's abilities to your vision of "who he is."
For those who have a strong idea of what their characters should be - or crave a little more verisimilitude than C&L offers - or simply want to shape their character's "game stats" to exactly fit their "vision" of him, Point-Based is the way to go.
However, I also feel that, in general, it takes gaming experience to have a strong idea of what your character should be, or to have bumped up against the game system foibles that halt suspension of disbelief due to a lack of verisimilitude or who have enough experience to know HOW to shape their "game stats" to reflect their "vision." A first-timer is still too busy wrapping his head around the concept of RPGs to worry about the "numbers" that go into shaping the way a character interacts with his RPG world.
Which is a long way of saying that C&L is good for starting out because it keeps the focus on "how to play the game" and once you're comfortable with that, you might be ready or interested in using point buy to "game the playing of the game" as it were (you may never reach that point of dissatisfaction with C&L, but I have to think that a game with limited choices is easier to learn and get oriented in, and C&L by its very nature presents more limited choices than point buy).
I didn't vote, because I would rather PLAY point buy... but would rather DM class & level.
--The Sigil
Psion
Adventurer
interwyrm said:
The bins might vary in size, but IMO you sould never be able to totally eschew some skills/capabilities areas for others unless it makes sense to do so for the setting or genre (say, a supers game where not all characters have mutant powers, some might just have really pumped up skills and gadgets.)
2WS-Steve
First Post
I'm going to wimp out and say I like both, for different campaigns.
Point buy feels like it handles better games where players start competent (like the equivalent of a 6th lvl character) and get more versatile with experience, instead of substanitally more powerful with experience. Point buy also seems to better handle characters with awesome powers, like Amberites with shadow walking and trump use, but who are otherwise close to human in power.
That said, there are things you can do in a class and level system that are very difficult in a point buy game. Since the designer can hand-craft classes, one can slip in wild, almost game-breaking abilities in a class since you know players have to choose which one of those abilities to go after. Spycraft does this really nicely.
Also, classes allow designers the flexibilty to put together inefficient packages of powers that are still appealing -- for example a warrior who has expert skill in a wide range of weapons or a superhero who has redundant powers like both superjumping and flying. Since you know the character is forced to buy the whole package you can "reduce the cost" of the redundant powers. That's just something that's hard to do with a point buy algorithm since it requires so much human judgment (though Champions makes a mighty and mostly workable effort with VPPs and Elemental Controls).
Finally, I do know that my players like the power upscaling of d20 style class and level systems.
Point buy feels like it handles better games where players start competent (like the equivalent of a 6th lvl character) and get more versatile with experience, instead of substanitally more powerful with experience. Point buy also seems to better handle characters with awesome powers, like Amberites with shadow walking and trump use, but who are otherwise close to human in power.
That said, there are things you can do in a class and level system that are very difficult in a point buy game. Since the designer can hand-craft classes, one can slip in wild, almost game-breaking abilities in a class since you know players have to choose which one of those abilities to go after. Spycraft does this really nicely.
Also, classes allow designers the flexibilty to put together inefficient packages of powers that are still appealing -- for example a warrior who has expert skill in a wide range of weapons or a superhero who has redundant powers like both superjumping and flying. Since you know the character is forced to buy the whole package you can "reduce the cost" of the redundant powers. That's just something that's hard to do with a point buy algorithm since it requires so much human judgment (though Champions makes a mighty and mostly workable effort with VPPs and Elemental Controls).
Finally, I do know that my players like the power upscaling of d20 style class and level systems.
sniffles
First Post
Kahuna Burger said:
Interesting. I started out in classless/levelless systems and came to level-based systems later, but I still find that in classless systems I can't wait to get XP because there's always some enhancement I want that I couldn't afford to buy with my starting points. No GM has ever given me enough starting points that I could play exactly the character I wanted from the beginning of the campaign.
To make point buy more viable...
For new players, have starting 'classes' which have certain skills, abilities, and traits to start with, and it is suggested that those are what the character should advance most.
For DMs, instead of having real levels, there could be a 'power level' indicator... basically, at a certain power level, a character is expected to have accrued a certain amount of experience, and should have at least x amount of abilities at some level, and y amount of skills at some level. All monsters would come with a power level associated with them, and there would be rules for quickly assigning values to npc skills and abilities based on the desired power level.
Does it seem like that would alleviate some of the problems of pointbuy?
For new players, have starting 'classes' which have certain skills, abilities, and traits to start with, and it is suggested that those are what the character should advance most.
For DMs, instead of having real levels, there could be a 'power level' indicator... basically, at a certain power level, a character is expected to have accrued a certain amount of experience, and should have at least x amount of abilities at some level, and y amount of skills at some level. All monsters would come with a power level associated with them, and there would be rules for quickly assigning values to npc skills and abilities based on the desired power level.
Does it seem like that would alleviate some of the problems of pointbuy?
Merlion
First Post
The Sigil said:And Ennie-nominated, at that!
Myself, I prefer the free-form structure for advanced players, but when I'm DMing with newer players (as seems to often be the case; I'm a 20+ year vet DM who has almost never had a group with more than half non-newbs), I prefer Class & Level.
Class & Level is simpler to use book-keeping-wise, and makes it easier to visualize "who your character is" based on his abilities.
Point-Based is harder to use book-keeping-wise, and makes it easier to shape your character's abilities to your vision of "who he is."
For those who have a strong idea of what their characters should be - or crave a little more verisimilitude than C&L offers - or simply want to shape their character's "game stats" to exactly fit their "vision" of him, Point-Based is the way to go.
However, I also feel that, in general, it takes gaming experience to have a strong idea of what your character should be, or to have bumped up against the game system foibles that halt suspension of disbelief due to a lack of verisimilitude or who have enough experience to know HOW to shape their "game stats" to reflect their "vision." A first-timer is still too busy wrapping his head around the concept of RPGs to worry about the "numbers" that go into shaping the way a character interacts with his RPG world.
Which is a long way of saying that C&L is good for starting out because it keeps the focus on "how to play the game" and once you're comfortable with that, you might be ready or interested in using point buy to "game the playing of the game" as it were (you may never reach that point of dissatisfaction with C&L, but I have to think that a game with limited choices is easier to learn and get oriented in, and C&L by its very nature presents more limited choices than point buy).
I didn't vote, because I would rather PLAY point buy... but would rather DM class & level.
--The Sigil
I realize you are voicing your opinion, and thats completely valid but I just have to chime in and say I'm reasonbly experienced with RPGs, and I usualy have very clear ideas of what I want my characters to be (especially as far as role, abilities, mechanics and overall character philosophy) but I would rather have a flexible class based system than a point buy type of thing. Especially if dealing with a DM who will allow supplemental materials and variant rules. What I've seen of most free form systems just dont seem any less restrictive or any better at assuring you can create the character you want than the class and level based ones, and as you say the bookeeping with an actual class is generally much easier, both in play and in conceptualization
I like having nice packages that I can choose from and alter a little through things like choice of feats and spells, rather than having to build everything about the character completely from scratch and worry about having the points or whatever for everything.
