Classes and Levels or Point buy

[Merlion]

I dont want to have to make up a spell to do what I need done on the fly. I'd rather have a system (like D&D's) where most things are already covered. I dont want to have to take a "spell seed", and add other factors to it to get what I want...especially when theres no guarantee there is a factor or whatever for what I want.


Thats another thing that keeps me coming back to D&D...there are spells for most things, and spells that do various complex things rather than just "energy blast", "heal", "augment ability" "levitate" etc etc.

 

[Desdichado]

I prefer classes and levels, very slightly, with the caveat that the core D&D catalog of classes is insufficient IMO. For certain genres, I'm also not a fan of escalating hit points as level goes up, but GrimNGritty or Darkness and Dread both work around that in d20 very elegantly, IMO.

 

[interwyrm]

I can't think of a single spell in D&D that is 'unique' such that it cannot be grouped with at least one other spell.

If there is a spell for everything you want, then why shouldn't there be a factor for a spell seed for everything that you want?

Also, the system is (somewhat) already built into D&D. I mean... what do you call an empowered magic missile, or a widened fireball? Or sculpt spell?

A spell seed needs to have three basic modifiers, and then there are others that just do cool stuff. The three basic ones are range, shape, and duration. There are metamagic feets that do all three of those. So why don't they just have a fourth level inferno fireball that takes up twice as much space? You have to take a feat to do that? Please.

 

[Psion]

I feel the need to expand on classes, as I sort of got off onto a tangent of what I consider "tolerable point buy."

To me, classes are not in a least bit a sacred cow, because they serve one or more useful functions:

• They serve as functional archetypes. A strong game has a strong default adventuring model, and part of making such a game churn is strong functional archetypes. It ensures that the core adventuring model is sound by producing an expectation of character types.
• A close cousin to the above, you have niche protection. A central measure of balance is how much a player can contribute to the game. Being overshadowed or having an area that is coopted by other players can be a bona fide balance issue. By making experts in given area, you ensure that in a well distributed party, there is an activity that will be a certain PCs forte
• Logical grouping of capabilities. A wizard should have some knowledge arcane, a fighter should have a little durability. Classes help ensure that the capabilities you select sort of make sense with one another.
• Abstract description. When a GM has an npc or pc that is a 5th level fighter, you may have a fair idea of the capabilities such a character possesses. This makes it easier to design encounters and adventures.
• Embedded concept, ready to roll. Sometimes its a pain in the tucus to peice together all of the parts of a character concept. With classes, most of the capabilities are already there; you just add your own spin by picking things like feats and skills. Makes for quicker play, and some concept rich classes (like many prestige classes) can provide you with inspiration as the beginning point of a PC or villain.

I feel that classes don't work well for some genres (mainly supers), but think it is far from any sort of a dispensible "sacred cow." They serve many useful functions.

 

[Turjan]

Spell: Refuge
Modifications:
Invisible
Ethereal
Provides Food
Supports x lifeforms
Lasts x time
Prevents Scrying

etc...

And this spell would be prohibitively expensive, unlike "Leomund's tiny hut". The problem is that each of the single effects you listed (and other's that you didn't list) has a value on its own, which is fine if you just regard the factor of realism (creating all this complicated matter, long duration, etc.). But the whole spell as it is does not provide such an advantage to the group of adventurers that it justifies such a high casting cost as it most probably would get in a point buy system. This is an advantage of a system with defined spells, where you can easily balance complicated combination spells as a whole in the context of the game. The disadvantage is, of course, that you have to learn all spells separately, instead of only a small set of rules and effect costs.

 

[Turjan]

[*]A close cousin to the above, you have niche protection. A central measure of balance is how much a player can contribute to the game. Being overshadowed or having an area that is coopted by other players can be a bona fide balance issue. By making experts in given area, you ensure that in a well distributed party, there is an activity that will be a certain PCs forte

Just to add this, because I think it fits: I find the class system of D&D with regard to spellcasting classes lacking. There should be a way to make caster level = character level without unbalancing the whole system. As it is now, a spellcaster's only good chance to bring in some variation are prestige classes that don't damage the caster level.

 

[Catavarie]

I'm in a bit of a conundrum here, I can't say that I like either one over the other, although if I have to say Classes & levels then I also like to have a Class Tree setup, for example if my fighter reaches Level 3 perhaps he wants to specialize in more defensive fighting style, well then would he still be a true fighter or would he now be considered a Defender or Guard instead? or if at level 3 he wanted to concentrate on more aggresive fighting, would he be called a Striker or an Assaulter? Or if he staid middle of the road learning both defense and aggresion would then still be a fighter?

Just a thought.

 

[interwyrm]

And this spell would be prohibitively expensive, unlike "Leomund's tiny hut". The problem is that each of the single effects you listed (and other's that you didn't list) has a value on its own, which is fine if you just regard the factor of realism (creating all this complicated matter, long duration, etc.). But the whole spell as it is does not provide such an advantage to the group of adventurers that it justifies such a high casting cost as it most probably would get in a point buy system. This is an advantage of a system with defined spells, where you can easily balance complicated combination spells as a whole in the context of the game. The disadvantage is, of course, that you have to learn all spells separately, instead of only a small set of rules and effect costs.

I'm not entirely sure what your problem with the spell is. If the problem is that all of those enhancements are included in the stock spell, that's not what I intended at all. The intent was that the character learns the base spell, and then at different points during the campaign learns the modifications to the spell. There would be limitations on which modifications can be used in conjunction with others (obviously you wouldn't have something that was both invisible and ethereal because that's redundant)

The idea behind a modular casting system is to create the modifiers so that when used alone or in combination with each other, they create an effect that is appropriate to the power level of the character casting the spell.

 

[Turjan]

I'm not entirely sure what your problem with the spell is.

I thought I made that pretty clear: Spell costs. If you take an effect like "invisibility", then this is in and itself quite useful and would be assigned a certain cost. The spell duration would be another cost factor. In a modular point buy system, each of these effects would have fixed costs. E.g., the duration cost would have to be measured against what you wanted to pay for making an "invisibility" spell with a duration of half a day. In a combat or challenge example (e.g., sneaking into some enemy camp), this duration would be infinitely more valuable than in some spell granting shelter for the night (like "rope trick"), and therefore the cost of this "duration" would be relatively high. The same would be true for each and every effect included in combination spells. As these effects all have some uses in and themselves, they would be expensive as a building block in a modular spell. In a modular system, the point costs for flavourful non-combat combination spells would skyrocket to ridiculous heights without any comparable value in game terms.

If the problem is that all of those enhancements are included in the stock spell, that's not what I intended at all.

No, the problem is that they are not included in the stock spell, which makes the equivalent combination spell too expensive for what it does.

(obviously you wouldn't have something that was both invisible and ethereal because that's redundant)

Obviously, "invisible" and "ethereal" are not two redundant factors. Invisibility is no protection against monsters using scent or touch. Etherealness doesn't protect from inhabitants of the ethereal plane.

The idea behind a modular casting system is to create the modifiers so that when used alone or in combination with each other, they create an effect that is appropriate to the power level of the character casting the spell.

I understand this. My problem is, that the same modifiers are not always worth the same, depending on the situation and the purpose of the spell.

 

[Rasyr]

interwyrm - I didn't vote as you provided only a very limited set of possibilities.

For example, your two choices both basically preclude a choice that combines characteristics of both, such as Rolemaster and HARP.

In those two systems, you have levels, and you have professions (i.e. classes). Yet, in both those systems you also have a large amount of freeform development as well. Each profession gains a number of Development Points, and uses those to purchase the skills that they want, thus allowing for better shaping of the character you want.

Any character may learn any skill (and spells are learned just like skills are), but their profession/class determines how easy or hard it is to learn that skill. And levels work as breakpoints, making it easier for a GM to gauge how powerful a character is in relation to others.

Just something to give a little thought to...