Classes are VERY niche protective

[pauljathome]

The last L&L article has crystallized an impression that I've been getting for awhile.

DndNext sounds like it is going to have only a fairly small number of classes and that these classes will fiercely protect their perceived niches to a massively greater extent than has been the case in any games post 2nd edition.

Obviously, this is all subject to change, things might turn out differently, I'm extrapolating from inadequate information, etc.

But they're doing a lot of talking in absolutes. Fighters are THE BEST at fighting. They have the MOST hit points. Rogues are THE BEST at skills. Clerics are the BEST healers.

I just don't see where that opens up enough design space for many of the other existing character classes, at least as classes. A Barbarian pretty much is just a fighter with a nature theme. A ranger is either a rogue or a fighter. Etc

In practice, 3.x, Pathfinder and 4th edition really do NOT have classes protecting their niches very much. Between the sheer number of classes, archetypes, Prestige Classes, Hybrid Classes and multiclassing one can fairly easily build all sorts of characters that are very good fighters, excellent skill monkeys, very good healers, etc without being forced to take a particular class

It very much sounds like characters are going to be significantly more cookie cutter than in 3.x etc. All fighters will be better at fighting than all rogues. All rogues are backstabbing skill monkeys. There will still be customization available (perhaps a lot) through backgrounds and themes but, at root, your character IS your class. Where class is one of perhaps a dozen or so choices.

In particular, it sounds like all sorts of character concepts just won't be supported. If you want to play a good fighter who is also trying to be the worlds best swordmaker then you're out of luck. If you're playing a very studious mage who is at least as much a sage as a spell caster then too bad.

Presumably they'll add in some support for some favourite types (eg, a sword wielding wizard gish). But if you want to play a Zen Archer or an Adventuring Archaeologist then you're likely out of luck.

For a lot of people this may be a good thing. But it certainly doesn't fit my personal tastes very well

 

[GX.Sigma]

I think you've got it backwards. Its not about niche protection, It's about breadth. Each class is broad enough to encompass a lot of character concepts. I'd rather not have the 4e style where each class is a very specific archetype, so you need 100 classes to let people play the character they want.

It'll be interesting to see if D&DN uses subclasses as in 1e, or groups as in 2e, or all base classes as in 3e. I think I'd prefer subclasses, but that seems unlikely at this point.

 

[Salamandyr]

I think, with the customization options of themes and backgrounds, this is a really good thing. In fantasy, there's really only three ways to overcome an obstacle: fight it, skill it, or magic it. Some people would add invoking divinity at it, but that's just a kind of magic that D&D has spun off into its own thing.

So really, three, or four classes is all you need. All else is just variations and mixing it up, which multiclassing and themes would do very well.

 

[CM]

I think it's a little early to be assuming this much. They have to lay the groundwork for the classes somewhere, and that's why the core four are getting all the attention at the moment. Why even begin to contemplate how other classes will work when the core isn't set in stone?

Frankly all the hand-wringing in many of these threads is getting to be unbearable.

 

[YRUSirius]

Erm...they already mentioned wizards with the sage background...

-YRUSirius

 

[Dausuul]

I think it's a little early to be assuming this much. They have to lay the groundwork for the classes somewhere, and that's why the core four are getting all the attention at the moment. Why even begin to contemplate how other classes will work when the core isn't set in stone?

Frankly all the hand-wringing in many of these threads is getting to be unbearable.

Learn to bear it now, because when the 24th comes and [class X] isn't there in the first playtest, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Minigiant]

I think, with the customization options of themes and backgrounds, this is a really good thing. In fantasy, there's really only three ways to overcome an obstacle: fight it, skill it, or magic it. Some people would add invoking divinity at it, but that's just a kind of magic that D&D has spun off into its own thing.

So really, three, or four classes is all you need. All else is just variations and mixing it up, which multiclassing and themes would do very well.

Yes, I think it is more niche enforcement than niche protection. Your class gives you all the tools that you use to solve problems and does it heavily. Rogues are not as good warriors as fighter not because fighters are the BEST, it is because rogues are supposed to use skills and trickery and fighters are supposed to use fighting.

Niche protection is a side effect. The niches are there and will be protected but it seems that it is a side effect to force you to use the class's strength.

It is less "Fighters are the best at fighting" and more "If you prefer fighting obstacles, you are a fighter."

"If you prefer using skill to move around obstacles, you are a rogue."

"If you prefer to cast spells to magic away obstacles, you are a wizard."

"If you prefer to cast spells to help you overcome obstacles mundanely, you are a cleric."

 

[howandwhy99]

It's possible they are talking about averages rather than absolutes. For instance, a Fighter is on average the most capable at mundane combat, but certain builds (and definitely certain actions) can lower those odds.

When it comes to absolutes we're probably talking numeric bonuses like Fighters having the highest BAB, the largest hit die, the widest proficiency in arms and armor.

These only mean the odds begin in the fighter's favor due to these higher scores and increased abilities. They do not have to stay there though. Other classes can alter the odds to their favor by altering each particular situation. Any character can end up with a higher chance to hit, more hit points, and more powerful weapons (or vice versa). However, these are more temporary changes due to playing the game rather than being a fighter. The fighter class simply denotes the long term retention of certain abilities due to training.

 

[Gargoyle]

Today's Rule of Three sort of spells it out, regarding some of these points:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rule-of-Three: 05/08/2012)

What are you doing to make sure that the cleric and other magic users don't step on the toes of the other classes? If a cleric can be sneaky and use a bow, what place does the ranger or rogue have?

It's important to remember when talking about competence in particular areas that there is a distinction between being good at something and being the best at something. We want to make sure that each character class shines in certain arenas, and as a result while you might build a cleric who can sneak and use a bow (to use your example), and your cleric might be very good at those things, the ranger or rogue will probably still be better. We want to give plenty of flexibility for people to be able to build the characters they want to build, that are good at the things they want them to be good at, while still providing ways for all the classes to have certain realms in which they are the best.

 

[RangerWickett]

When it comes to absolutes we're probably talking numeric bonuses like Fighters having the highest BAB, the largest hit die, the widest proficiency in arms and armor.

My understanding of 5e was that they were eliminating anything like "level-based attack bonuses." Your AC at 1st level in full plate and a shield is the same as your AC at 20th level in full plate in a shield (barring maybe a small boost from magic items). Likewise, your attack bonus with 18 strength at 1st level is the same it would be at 20th (barring some small boost from magic items).