Classic dungeons: What makes them great?

To me one of the defining parts of a 1E or even 2E adventure was the inherent randomness, and coolness of the dungeon.

Randomness means the 35% or XX% chance something would happen. The players did not know, and the DM was not supposed to know. The whole bad things happen to good people effect. And those percentages were hard or impossible to change. Was the dragon awake? WEll, who knows, not even the DM, and the party could bless or curse those dice. Now most of those decisions are in the hands of the DM, and most DMs are far nicer than random chance.

Coolness was interesting effects. Like the magical pools that could grant or take away ability points. Potions of Longevity, until you drank one too many. Weird rooms, and odd monsters there for little reason. Now everything has to be explained ad nauseum. And that takes away from the game.

I guess I am saying in a lot of ways those early modules were an adventure for the DM, as well as the players, and that is not so any more.
 

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Some great points so far. :)

***SPOILERS AHEAD***

One thing that can make a module, be it homebrew or published, memorable for me are the set-piece battles contained within:

Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun: the brawl to get in the main entrance is amazing; even more so when the PCs try to even the odds by chucking darkness and fog effects all over the place so nobody can see anything at all! Ran this one almost 20 years ago and it's probably still my all-time favourite combat as a DM...and no, I didn't even get to kill anyone! :)

Tomb of the Lizard King: there's a huge brawl here when you reach the underground plain where Sakkatha's tomb is...excellent stuff! The lizardmen just keep coming!

Forge of Fury: this has two; one against the roper, and one against the black dragon. Both see the PCs at a distinct positional disadvantage; both are excellent!

Most of the others I'm remembering are from homebrew adventures. There's probably lots of other good ones in published adventures I've never played or DM'ed.

Another thing that can make a module a classic is clever use (but not overuse) of well-placed well-designed unusual traps and non-combat encounters e.g. the Cyst area in Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.

Lanefan
 

1. Nostalgia. We see them through rose colored glasses, remembering the carefree times of our youth.

2. Shared experiences. Those adventures were far more common to the majority of D&D players than but a handful of products today.

3. Novelty. The first time you saw drow was in GDQ; now they are common place. The classic adventrues were generally the first time many things were introduced, so they remain iconic (the iconic killer dungeon: the Tomb of Horrors).

4. Flexibility: The best classics, as the best adventures for recent editions, have a great deal of built in flexibility and toptions for both players and DMs.

5. Memorable elements ... whether weird cultists, black maws, killing gods ...
 

We have just finished with Caverns of Thracia (COT) and are about to start with Against the Giants (G1-3) (both of which I've palyed and run before). Here's my take on these classics in view of your list.

SPOLIER ALERT






Doug McCrae said:
....

1) Variety of monster type while remaining within a certain theme. One doesn't want all orcs, but otoh one doesn't want a total zoo. The four elements in ToEE are a classic example of a theme.
G1 has pretty low monster divesity, what it does have is monsters in concert/in an organic living breathing interplay. Giants enslaving orcs and working with other larger humanoids.
That said, much of Gary's monster placement in the 1e era seems to be completely random.
Not really with respect to G1-3, placement makes sense to me. Guarfd creatures near entrtances. What doesn't make much sense if the lack of effective guards or barriers in G2 and G3. Sleeping guards in G1 stroke of genius.

2) Variety of encounter type - monsters, traps, NPC interaction.
I'd also say (especially in G1, G2) variety of effective appraoches to crwawling the dungeon. If you ignore the recommendation all creatures always fight to the death, also a variety of approaches to overcoming the monsters.

3) Variety of encounter difficulty. For example, the feasting giants in G1 are expected to be far too numerous to be fought conventionally, forcing the PCs to be stealthy, tricky or strategically brilliant.
Same for G2-3. COT is also full of terrain that a clever party can use to ambush and gain advantage over opponents,; especially with the 3 dimensional nature of the caverns.

4) Size. Not too big, not too small. But how big is too big? How small is too small?
G1-3 are basically 2 levels each. I'd call that medium. Half of a G1-3 level would be small, a quick adventure. COT is large but multifaceted, 4 main levels plus at least as many sub-levels weaving in and out.

5) Raison d'etre - the dungeon needs to have some reason for its existence. It can't just be a vast unexplained monster-infested hole.
Does it? The DM should have an explanation should it be needed and to help determine NOC action, but tu the PCs the reason need not be evident.

6) A reason for going? PCs need a reason to go to the dungeon. I'm not sure if this required, maybe general treasure-seeking is enough, without it even being a specific treasure.
Easiest part, just need to know what motivates your players. High adventure sdaring deeds, heroic rescue, loot, mayhem, etc.

7) The nature of the place. Gary seemed to really love temples - ToEE, Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. Coincidence? Or do temples to strange gods make for better dungeons?
Temples are good reasons for 5 & 6, and when evil why they are hidden away. Add in the concept of votive offerings and yoo can have a loot fest.

8) Internal conflict. A popular element is a conflict between two or more factions. This is the case in ToEE, Sunless Citadel and the Conan classic tale, Red Nails. This adds both interest and an element of roleplaying as PCs can join one or other faction. Or play each side against the other, Yojimbo style.
Red Nails is a classic, COT lends itself very well to this, with multiple factions. Likewise G1 if you are careful. It adds a dimension to play and options beyond hack-slash (to parley and hack-slash with allies :) ) Really it adds a sense of versimultude as many a heroic adventure tale includes teh garnering of allies, even if temporary.


SO what you need is a dungeon with a temple, multiple factions, maybe each faction with a sampling of creatures working in conjunction. Add in an interesting layout, maybe a third dimension, that allows for multiple paths through dungeon and use of clever tactics/ambush. Have you looked at Judges Guild's The Dark Tower? It's got all that, plus you can play it with good or evil aligned PCs.
 

1) Danger (without the certainty of death). If the players feel their characters could die, then they are more likely to feel excited when they succeed.

2) An interesting story outline. This gets the DM excited about running the adventure, and this makes it more likely that the players will be entertained. However, they must be careful to avoid #3.

3) No railroading. Most players won't have any fun if they can't alter the outcome of the adventure. At least give the illusion of meaningful choices.

4) Cool monsters. And variety. One type of monster is no fun at all.
 

Classic Dungeons

There are many good points in previous.

But I would like to bring up what I like to call the Coke vs Pepsi factor.

Most people agree that Pepsi tastes better than Coke, but Coke brings an experience factor with it. Memory/emotion--you have all heard the psyco babble on this subject I am sure.

So now you have a whole 1ed vs D20.

Sure it is less painful to get a "newbie" into the game when everyone understands that bigger numbers are better----but what about all the fond memories of THAC0---and what do you mean that AC-2 is way better than AC12

That said---T1, B2, B4, G1-3, the whole S series--whichever you prefer--were they great--are they still great today--were they never great to begin with

I believe that anyone that played back in 1ed will have their favorite--and the memory of the experience is better than what anyone can ever put in a module.
 


Nice analysis! :)
Doug McCrae said:
1) Variety of monster type while remaining within a certain theme.
[...]
2) Variety of encounter type - monsters, traps, NPC interaction.
3) Variety of encounter difficulty.
[...]
5) Raison d'etre - the dungeon needs to have some reason for its existence.
[...]
8) Internal conflict.
Those are the most important points, IME. I think it actually boils down to two major criteria:
1) Believability: A good dungeon must make sense on at least some basic level. If you invest some thoughts about its history that will improve all its other aspects: the atmosphere, level of detail, inhabitants, map layout, etc.
2) Encounter design: There must be some variance in type, difficulty, required tactics and/or theme. If there are several factions involved that's (almost) always a big plus for a dungeon adventure because it adds roleplaying opportunities.

However, I think that the majority of the adventures that are considered classics today are not really that great at all. Many suffer from an odd mix of creatures, unfair death traps, and simply being too big/long and/or not having enough variance in the encounter design.

I remember having lots of fun playing several of them, nonetheless. But I doubt the experience would be repeatable. After 25 years of roleplaying my expectations are a lot higher and my idea of what constitutes fun has changed considerably.
 

Olgar Shiverstone said:
1. Nostalgia. We see them through rose colored glasses, remembering the carefree times of our youth.

2. Shared experiences. Those adventures were far more common to the majority of D&D players than but a handful of products today.

3. Novelty. The first time you saw drow was in GDQ; now they are common place. The classic adventrues were generally the first time many things were introduced, so they remain iconic (the iconic killer dungeon: the Tomb of Horrors).

4. Flexibility: The best classics, as the best adventures for recent editions, have a great deal of built in flexibility and toptions for both players and DMs.

5. Memorable elements ... whether weird cultists, black maws, killing gods ...

No real need to post, as Olgar has already nailed it. :cool:
 

trollwad said:
The biggest thing I've noticed both in reading about and playing old time or new classics and the bulk of 3e stuff, is that sense of danger -- oh s--t, we may die.

QFT. There's no OSHA (Occupational Safety & Health Administration) for dungeon workers in AD&D. The "kobold in one room, red dragon in the next" nature of some AD&D adventures is criticized as silly and illogical, but the basic concept of "some encounters are very easy for the heroes, some will most likely kill you" makes the game exciting on a visceral level, and keeps the players on their toes.

And that's been nerfed in the officially encouraged ways of playing 3e. Using only "appropriate" monster CR for the party, and even worse choosing the monsters so they fit the party (e.g., no undead for the party without a cleric) reduces the fun, IMHO.
 

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