Classic dungeons: What makes them great?

[Gentlegamer]

I endorse "believability" as a valid design principle in good dungeon design, but it ought to be mixed with some fantastic "weirdness," too. I think many of the criticisms of some old-school dungeon modules fails to place the proper value on elements of fantastic weirdness that they exhibit. Of course, a dungeon that is wholly weird must be extremely well designed to pull it off, just as one that is wholly "believable" must be. Not every dungeon should be the equivalent of Beyond the Magic Mirror or mirror some kind of mundane, real-life ecological/geological setting.

 

[haakon1]

Fact: Coke tastes better than Pepsi, and most people know this. Coke, like D&D, is far and away the market leader in its industry.

From what I've heard, the market research shows Pepsi tastes better for the first few sips, but for a full can, people prefer Coke. That's why Pepsi used to tout their blind taste test advantage, which apparently they were not making up.

The main difference is apparently that Pepsi is slightly sweeter, which is more exciting at first, but doesn't have the staying power of Coke's more complex flavor.

Coca-Cola was trying to replicate Pepsi's more "modern" and quick appealing flavor with New Coke (sweeter than regular Coke), but it failed, because most people still like real Coke better.

D&D is Coke, 4e is New Coke, made to be like World of Warcraft, which is of course the Pepsi of RPG's, the Choice of a New Generation.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Unrelated note: I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi by smell.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Coca-Cola was trying to replicate Pepsi's more "modern" and quick appealing flavor with New Coke (sweeter than regular Coke), but it failed, because most people still like real Coke better.

Perhaps there is a lesson here on how a market leader should not try to emulate what is "new and hip" by abandoning the things that made it successful in the first place.

 

[Melan]

Unrelated note: I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi by smell.

Unrelated note: I can tell there is difference, but if someone asked me which is which... I'd be in trouble.

 

[meomwt]

And that's been nerfed in the officially encouraged ways of playing 3e. Using only "appropriate" monster CR for the party, and even worse choosing the monsters so they fit the party (e.g., no undead for the party without a cleric) reduces the fun, IMHO.

Of course some of us don't believe in stuff like that - as my cleric-less players found out when a bunch of skellies took several rounds to pound into submission

 

[Raven Crowking]

As a related note, I ran a group through the Caves of Chaos a little more than a year ago, and although they only ended up exploring about half the caves, they had a real blast. This was a group comprised mostly of teenagers who have no experience of previous editions, and they were playing using the EN World 3.X conversion. No "rose-colored glasses" were involved.

The key to this module, IMHO, is its potential complexity of interaction. The PCs took out both series of orc caves, with a serious "oh " momment with the ogre (one casualty). The survivors of one of the orc caves were later discovered to have renamed its tribe in emulation of one of the PCs. They enjoyed the minotaur cave immensely, and liked the bugbear trick very much. They discovered the hidden temple, and actually became embroiled in a theological discussion with a captured priest.

There is a lot of gold in some of the older, classic, modules, but they require that the DM personalize them and make them relevant to his campaign.

RC

 

[Glyfair]

Unrelated note: I can tell there is difference, but if someone asked me which is which... I'd be in trouble.

It might be a better analogy if a large percentage of Coke buyers were still drinking the same bottle of Coke they bought last year and some were still drinking the same bottle they bought in 2003

 

[Korgoth]

What makes many of the oldies great are their design elements. Many of them simply had a more solid (imo) design philosophy. Nostalgia need not apply.

Personal refutation of nostalgia: Although I did play some of the classics back in the day, others I did not get to play or read. And, collecting them now, I judge them to be superior to modern offerings. YMMV. Also, I never played OD&D (3 brown books). But I've been paying them lots of attention lately, and am coming to the provisional conclusion that they represent a superior game even to my "favorite" version, B/X.

Elements of the oldies:

1. Difficulty. They were tough, and your characters could die in numerous ways. If you endured and triumphed, you could rely on that meaning that you did a good job.

2. No story. Most of the classics were detailed locations (one or more of dungeon, city, castle, lost island, etc.). What drew a particular group to the location was a rather open question in many cases. The emphasis tended to be on mounting an expedition and swiping the loot. The G series is an exception to this, having a more "epic mission" feel. I never played it. However, the method of approach still appears pretty open-ended.

3. Non-linear. Most of the classics are not just linear progressions through a series of areas. As discussed elsewhere, an excellent dungeon generally has multiple paths to the same place and does not require or even suppose that the party will "clear" an entire level, much less the whole complex. Dungeons, as a general rule (with attendant exceptions, of course) ought to be complicated.

4. Rules context. OD&D, Classic and 1E share a philosophy about the rules: hard and fast rules are few, and each DM is expected to handle his game differently. Of those 3 I mentioned, Classic is the most elegant and requires the least DM intervention, but also has very few actual rules. 1E is just a toolbox of rules. OD&D is a foundation, or something. Just to completely mix metaphors. The point is, within these contexts, a given module is more free to take on a life of its own, rather than conforming to an established and consistent set of rules and standards.

That's my take on it.

 

[haakon1]

Of course some of us don't believe in stuff like that - as my cleric-less players found out when a bunch of skellies took several rounds to pound into submission

My 1st level players nearly got TPK'd fighting skeletons not for the lack of a cleric (he was having a bad day with the D20, so he didn't help until the end) but for having only one blunt weapon in the whole party.