D&D 4E Classless 4e and adaptation for the Superhero Genre

[caml37]

Who's seen/played d20 silver age sentinels? I think it is a viable alternative for d20-ish heroes, but I haven't read this new writeup yet...

 

[Wraith Form]

I have SAS, as well as M&M, both loosely based on the 3.x game rules.

We're talking specifically about 4th edition rules, because as good as M&M and SAS are, 4th edition rules absolutely scream to be used as a supers game engine.

 

[scarik]

I'm currently putting together a format to create and play supers in 4e.

I'm working on an almost entirely custom method that dispenses with premade races and Classes and lets you simply make your own.

The powers are going to be entirely point build, do it yourself, affairs.

Here's the first version of the Races:
[sblock]
Common: All Supers get the following
Ability Scores: +2 to any 2.
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
--
Racial Power: Pick one
Bonus At-Will
Any Racial Encounter (Second Chance, Fey Step, Elven Accuracy, Dilettante, Infernal Wrath, Dragon Breath, etc)
--
Defense/Utility: Pick one
+1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will
Stand your Ground
Nimble Reaction
Bloodhunt
Wild Step
Trance
Dragonborn Fury
+1 Speed
Bonus Feat
Low-light Vision
Dark Vision
Climb equal to speed
Swim equal to speed
--
Skills: Pick one
+2 to any two skills
One additional Trained Skill
--
Resistances: Pick one
5+1/2 level to one of (Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Psychic, Radiant, Thunder)
+5 to saving throws against one of (Charm, Fear, Illusion, Poison, Sleep)
+2 to saving throws against 2 of (Charm, Fear, Illusion, Poison, Sleep)
Dwarven Resilience
Draconic Heritage
--
Miscellaneous: Pick one Defense/Utility, Skill or Resistance[/sblock]

Its essentially a brute force list of the official races divided into 5 categories so that you can make all the races in the PHB.

I have yet to come up with a series of drawbacks that would allow more powers. So Dwarves and halflings aren't entirely doable.

Since there's only 2 or 3 racial drawbacks in the PHB as is (less speed, small, maybe fey origin) I'm not sure how to proceed.

If people want I'll be happy to discuss it further, I also have classes and powers in a similar style so far.

 

[caml37]

I'd be willing to take a look...

 

[Ambush Bug]

Inspired by posts on this forum about classless 4e, I've been working on a 4e-based superhero game. It's not quite classless, but it retains the idea of everyone picking their powers from one big list without sacrificing 4e's tactical depth.

I think this looks great so far, and I'd enjoy seeing more. One question that I don't think I've seen you answer yet - how are you handling levels? Traditionally, superheroes start woth powers well above ordinary people, become more powerful in small increments, then hit a plateau once their bag of tricks is established. That plays out much differently than the traditional D&D system of starting your heroic career as someone who can be killed by a couple of good shots, and ending it as a semi-demi-god. Are you thinking of one of those two approaches, or something else?

 

[scarik]

I think this looks great so far, and I'd enjoy seeing more. One question that I don't think I've seen you answer yet - how are you handling levels? Traditionally, superheroes start woth powers well above ordinary people, become more powerful in small increments, then hit a plateau once their bag of tricks is established. That plays out much differently than the traditional D&D system of starting your heroic career as someone who can be killed by a couple of good shots, and ending it as a semi-demi-god. Are you thinking of one of those two approaches, or something else?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but since I'm pursuing a similar goal to the OP I may as well chime in.

The way 4e works from level 1-30 you are always about 4 solid hits from death, all that changes is your tactical versatility.

So for my version you level as normal and rely on the design methodology in D&D 4 that lead to all enemies being statted subjectively with respect to the PCs.

Nothing has absolute stats, all that matters is how hard it is for the PCs to fight it. In Supers this means almost everyone is a minion since they are taken out as soon as anyone powerful turns on them.

'Heroic' tier for SUpers is more powerful than the standard D&D when you think of them in relation to the world, but its the same mechanically since you will usually be fighting enemies of your calibur, you just turn up the FX and descriptions to capture the feel.

Your depth slowly climbs up until you hit Paragon then you plateau all the way til the end. Once you get your 4th Encounter and 4th Daily you have to swap them out to get new powers, the only things that keep accruing are Utilities.

Since you never gain more At-WIlls it nicely simulates every Supers's basic tricks staying the same their whole career.

No matter how potent he got, Spiderman always comes back to snaring you with a web then punching your lights out.

 

[Ambush Bug]

Nothing has absolute stats, all that matters is how hard it is for the PCs to fight it. In Supers this means almost everyone is a minion since they are taken out as soon as anyone powerful turns on them.

But then we run into what I think of as the Daredevil Problem. He's a dude who fights mobsters and low-rent gadgeteers. He's deliberately not a dude who fights Star-Mangler, Enemy Of All Planets, Devourer Of Suns. Part of the point of Daredevil is that he's just a well-trained person with minimal superhuman abilities. So as he levels in a 4E setting, what do you do to challenge him? Throw much larger hordes of mobsters at him? Pretty soon every person in New York is a mobster. Give all the mobsters more HD and attack bonuses? They'll murder every non-mobster in New York. Let him fight Star-Mangler every other session? Now he's become something other than Daredevil.

My point is that superhero adventures have different assumptions about power levels than sword-and-sorcery adventures do. And about appropriate threats. While 4E balances the mechanics more cleanly than other versions of D&D, the rapid level curve still potentially smashes holes in your world.

 

[scarik]

Ah, I get what you mean Ambush, I really do.

But you can still use 4e almost as is, all you need are customized characters, because I don't think the class system does justice to everyone.

For Daredevil you simply have to assume he won't be played past the Heroic tier.

That's implicit in being a 'street' level Hero, he's no Epic badass, at best he stopped advancing in early Paragon then became an NPC to populate the world for future PCs.

The other option is simply changing some other basic assumptions.

Take Tide of Iron, this pushes the target 1 square.

The terminology there is important, it doesn't say 5 feet or 10 feet. You can redefine a 'square' as any unit of distance you like to fit the FX you want for the game. You can say a Paragon tier hero uses 50 squares and an Epic one uses 500' ones if you want.

So when the Incredible Hulk pushes you one square he is really hurling you the length of a stadium then through a few buildings on the other side.

 

[Wraith Form]

Scarik, this is very similar to the thought process for Mutants & Masterminds - PL5 (or so) being "street level" heroes VS PL10 "standard" heroes.

 

[scarik]

Scarik, this is very similar to the thought process for Mutants & Masterminds - PL5 (or so) being "street level" heroes VS PL10 "standard" heroes.

Never read it.

But I'm not surprised since this is the thought process for D&D where low level equals low power and high level equals high power.