Classless D&D (skills-based)

[bloodymage]

I'm just starting to work on a new system IMC. My concept is to use 1e AD&D as a base because it's the least detailed (most open) and add skills from 2e and 3e. My initial effort is with this in mind so the "Class Skills" below only try to cover the basic component parts of each of the four "core" classes that are not already delineated elsewhere as a skill, proficiency or feat. At least that's what I tried to do. At this point, I'd like to know what "component parts" I might be missing. Most of this is a general concept in my head that will become more specific as I put it together, hopefully, with your help and feedback. My goal is maximum character versatility in a simple D&D-based system with a high degree of playability. With that, my initial scribblings:

CLASS SKILLS

Fighter:
Weapons
Parry (AC)
Feint (to hit)
Dodge Strike (AC)
Strike (to hit)
Block Strike (shield AC)
Telling Strike (damage)
Grapple (subdue)
Brawl (unarmed strike)

Cleric:
Faith
Intone
Ritual
Turning
Incite/Inspire

Wizard:
Invoke
Scribe
Enchant
Research

Rogue/Thief:
Backstab
Legerdemain

 

[ùìéè äîáåê]

I'm confused

How does that fit into 3E? I consider 3E to be the simplest D&D version, for example the BAB and the "roll d20 and add modifiers to beat a DC of X" are simple concepts, lacking in the 2nd edition. What part of the system will be 2nd edition based?

More to the point, I fail to see the reasoning behind a few of the skills. To a large extent, the number of skills you allow will determine the level of detail a specific area will be covered under your system. Given that, I find some of your choices... puzzling. I'll try to address them below. Keep in mind I'm doing it with the aim of giving you my opinion - I'm not critcising at all, even if at times it may seem so.

You have Parry, Dodge Strike and Block Strike to improve AC. There are, of course, many other ways to divide things - any martial artist will tell you "Lead Foe" is an important skill, or perhaps you should call it Riposte. And so on. The point is - why this division? I personally favor (roughly) the following categories, intended to be non-cumulative (i.e. excelusive) and to represent a campaign NOT focused on combat. Each supports both defense (say AC) and offence (say attack bonus) in each round, and even skilled warriors will usually only know about two or three of these:
Two-Handed Weapons
One-Handed Slashing
One-Handed Heavy (Bludegoing)
Piercing (Light) Blades
Bows
Crossbows
Exotic/Other (per weapn or class thereof)
Pole
Spear
Long-spear
Lance
Sword and Shield
Spear and Shield

I am not clear on the division between intone/ritual/faith. But I guess that has to do more with the magic system under your rules than with anything else.

Why did you differentiate Scribe for the Wizard? Why not Brew Potion, Make Magical Items, and so on (or is that whay you mean by enchant? ) ?
I assume Invoke is "cast a spell". If that's so, I'll like to add "Alchemy" to the list of skills, as in making use of material components. I see it as a key part of the casting.

You didn't list the Rouge. I'd peg him for something like:
Sneak Attack (or Backstabbing?)
Legerdemain
Alertness
Trap/Tech Lore
Climb/Hide etc.
plus a few combat skills

_______________________________________________
As a side note, I have been toying with an idea to convert Ars Magica to d20 or vice versa (can't make up my mind), and one problem is how to allocate skill points in a skill-only system. Or to put it another way: how to make an all-skill system that still uses class levels, spell levels and so on. How do you intend to do it?

Hope this was of some use to you,
Yair

 

[bloodymage]

Thanks for the input. To answer a couple of questions. Elements I think I want to use from 3e: d20 (maybe, I'm considering d% for skills), the basic skills system, AC, DC, and some skills breakdowns of feats and PrC's . From 2e, non-weapon proficiencies, secondary skills and skill breakdowns of "kits."

I didn't list anything for the Rogue because it's already a skills-based class and I couldn't think of anything to add. Legerdemain makes sense to me.

Everything you listed for the fighter is under my "Weapons." In my scribblings at this point, it's just easier to list "weapons" than what's in my head. Good list, btw.

As to my magic system. At present I don't use spell slots for major casters. Wizards use mana and clerics beseech their deities for spells as needed. Additionally, clerics may only take scribe scroll and brew potion. Wizards "enchant" all items though clerics can enspell a prepared enchanted item. So:
1. Faith=investment in divine relationship
2. Intone=supplication to a deity
3. Ritual=physical elements of spell casting, site preparation, traditional "rules of order, precedence, etc." Listed under clerics, but a necessary skill for arcane casters as well.
4.Turning=turning
5. Incite/inspire=proseltyzing, leadership, "rabble-rousing"
6. Invoke=tapping mana, casting
7. Scribe=write magic-scrolls, spellbooks. IMW, wizards are the only automatic literates and all arcane magic is written in draconoic. Clerics must spend 1 skill point in literacy (any language other than Common) to scribe scroll.
8. Enchant=preparing items to receive spells
9. Research=new spells, item creation design
10. Alchemy=use and combination of mundane items to produce desired results or magical effect

My thinking hasn't gotten far enough for allocation. I figure my first step is listing component skills, then all skills, then think about allocation. I do think that some skills may require prerequisites like some feats do now. I also know it should be easier to become a middling swordswinger or cutpurse or even a spell beggar than a fledgling spellslinger. Haven't worked that out yet.

Suggestions concerning any stage of this project are eagerly sought. Keep it coming!

 

[dvvega]

Sounds like Rolemaster ... true it has classes, however those classes simply dictated the ease of which you could learn skills, combat, magic and so forth.

You can simly reduce that to a "template" like "warrior type", "wizard type" etc.

 

[bloodymage]

Uugh, Templates!

I'm trying to get outta the box here. One thing I don't like about later editions are the "templates" as in "kits" and PrC's. I've owned Rolemaster and I'm striving for something much simpler here. Just a skills list and my players make their own "template." Am I tilting windmills here?

Btw, "Backstab" needs to be added to the thief since it's a class skill not listed elsewhere.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

What about more magic skills, like ones for diffrent schools of magic, for example Necromancy(I would also suggest using skills for each of four elements) And I think that Arcane Spell Casters would benefit from The Ritual Skill too!

 

[bloodymage]

In my thinking, spells and schools are not skills. Wizard's and cleric's skills involve learning how to tap the magic available to them. Once they learn the mechanics, certain formulae exist for them to utilize. Coming up with new formulae uses other skills.

The skills listed are not exclusive. I've already stated that Ritual is a necessary skill for arcane casters.

 

[dvvega]

I developed a system like what you are talking about.

However I made it have levels (as in you gained levels and points to spend - without levels spells like fireball are not really feasible).

When you chose magic schools you'd choose access levels to certain types of spells.

For example:

Skill: Arcane Magic 1 - lets you use spells of level 1-3
Skill: Arcane Magic 2 - lets you use spells of level 4-6
Skill: Arcane Magic 3 - lets you use spells of level 7-8
Skill: Arcane Magic 4 - lets you use spells of level 9

The same went for clerical magic.

I didn't like the system in the end because it let anyone learn ALL spells in the level range.

So I modified it to be school based.

So a fighter would go to a conjuror school to learn to summon things, but couldn't send out fireballs etc.

 

[widderslainte]

Intriguing. Tell me more about how the Cleric and Wizards skills work, mechanically or in-game.

 

[dvvega]

In my system? Well when I ran it, you gained the "magic feat" that gave you access to spells.

Each spellcasting character (remember that anyone could conceivably develop casting), had an arcane/divine casting skill. Each time a spell is cast they had to roll their skill or fail. A failure indicated that they had exhausted themselves that day, and successive attempts were at -1. The negatives stacked per failure (so 2 failures = -2), and after a number of failures = to your caster level, you couldn't cast for the day anymore.

It worked okay ... but 3rd edition is much simpler.