Hey! I had a few extra minutes beforeleaving until Saturday, and I saw the post directing me to come here. I am the author of the ExP20 (tentative name) system in layout for Dreamscarred Press. However, I am not an official Rep ofthe company - that would be A_a or Bacris. But - I would love toanswer any and all questions ... when I get back on Saturday. Sorry! I can however start with these...
As I said, an awful lot of the problems people have with point-buy stuff is a combination of balance, along with their own personal biases in terms of gameplay.
An excellent analysis - and true. When projects like these come out, the game designer always has to make a choice: assume the misbalance of the original mechanics or change the mechanics in addition to changing character development. I did not change any mechanics of feats, spells, etc. All I changed was the character building process. What that means is that your analysis is correct. Game balance problems in 3.x will continue to exist in ExP20. Mages, Psions, etc will still be powerful. But, I am up front with that and admit it in the work. With ExP20, I wasn't wanting to also take on the task of redefining mechanics as well. Save that for another project that may expand ExP20 a little, I suppose.
If the author of something wants things to look more like Conan than Avatar the Last Airbender, I personally really want to know this upfront. Too often systems present themselves as being "better" mathematically/mechanically and the "better" part really means "This suits my preferences better" rather than "There's a problem here, and this is what I feel will resolve the problem".
I was hoping to assume a base "3.x" feel. Now, some classes obviously come off smelling better than others. You can't do a point-buy system completely fairly. But I can say that in this system the rogue gets help, the Cleric and Druid don't. The Pally gets a bit of help. The bard gets much needed help. Thesorcerer is pretty close to even. There are a few anomalies.
But, I will say this. The system was designed around "character options" more than balance. I had to assume a certain level of balance from 3.x or else I was into redesigning a bunch of mechanical problems. But this system is designed to give players options. Those classes with few options tend to come off smelling really good. Those classes with multiple class abilities at every level tend to come off a bit poorly. My premise was character options, not the power that were contained within the options. In that regard, I had to trust that all "6th level abilities" are reasonably balanced with each other. It is a faulty premise to some extend, but it is one that cannot be purely dealt with without a complete overhaul of 3.x, too.
Point Buy Numbers. A riff off of Buy the Numbers. Supposedly the author started out with the idea of using Buy the Numbers for d20 Modern and had to keep making modifications/changes as he went along, and finally decided it was so extensive he should put it out as a full product.
He (in my opinion) butchered Buy the Numbers, gave absolutely no indication of what he changed from it, nor did he say _why_ it was changed... it was a really disappointing purchase, and worthless as far as I'm concerned.
Well, ExP20 has a third of the work dedicated to why I chose the progressions that I did. The information is all included. My premises are all there, and DM/GMs are free to agree with them or disagree with them. But Ican tell you that 1/3 of the entire work is explaining why I did what I did for the system. And nowhere do I talk down on Buy the Numbers. I bought that work and loved it - in spite of some mathematical errors in the class builds. I have great respect for what S.T. Cooley did for my perspective on character design.
Buy the Numbers and Grim Tales are both _good_ examples of how to do this kind of toolkit approach. BESMd20 falls down hard on this job because they didn't actually give explicit breakdowns of the core classes using their system, just a point total.
For the record, ExP20 will not contain core breakdowns. Using DSP classes as well as SRD classes, that would have meant doing 23 breakdowns (and many pages of dry mechanical reading). But there are 8 example builds to show what the system can do. And they are point-buy-point builds, so DM/GMs can see how the character comes together completely.
Buy the Numbers and Grim Tales on the other hand present the "base" way of doing things, and then note several different approaches that are also possible. They mention the potential ramifications of the choices, without using discouraging language ("If your a powergamer, you might prefer to do this instead...")
ExP20 has this to an extent as well, including potential ramifications. I am blatant in the work, however. Pwergamers will be able to make strong characters. But powergamers under a powergaming DM will be able to be challenged like never before as well. Powergaming is not a sin - it's a gaming style. A style that systems like this _can_ encourage. And there is nothing wrong with them as a system so long as everyoneat the table wants it!
In the same light, this system encourages non-combat RP builds just as much. Tables that are more non-combat/non-powergaming can truly find new expression and versatility in this system. I don't take one style over the other, but I do realize what each style can accomplish under point-buy styles of character design.
As a fan of point-based stuff, I've been occasionally annoyed or frustrated by projects like these. Too often it seems a product like this is put out, and then there's no "support" for it. I don't mean an endless stream of new products to buy that are hooked into the system. I mean practical tools, examples, and even just answering questions about the darn thing.
This project will be supported as much as the DSP staff desires. Honestly, that will also largely be determined by customer requests. I have known DSP to take their fans very seriously. If there is a desire for a product - or an expansion or free web enhancement - they get it done. But, as an independant contractor I cannot speak for ultimate support. But I have faith in DSP as a company to give their fans what they want.
Also, there is an issue of closed-content material. For example, while I may be able to breakdown the warlock or Bo9S material - it cannot be published. So there are copyright limits to how much non-OGl support can exist. A_a or Bacris, please correct me if I am wrong here or explain it better from a business perspective!
Additionally, make up an entirely new class and show how it progresses along too. Instead of simply doing a standard class ("Ok, lets say you want to create a class that combines the Fighter with some mystical elements...") do something a bit more out there. Like a shapeshifter class. That way people can see not only how standard classes look, but they can see the _actual_ flexibility of the system.
As stated before, ExP20 has 8 of these in the content!
Of course, if you're already in layout it's probably too late to include that. So put it out as a teaser or web-enhancement.
This could easily bedone for all the SRD base classes as well as the DSP base classes. I have them done in a single Excel file (with 24 different worksheets, mind you!) It would be up to Bacris and/or A_a to determine the need and form of this, assuming it has fan support/need.
Something else that's handy? A worksheet.
Done. I create every character for all of my games on an Excel spreadsheet. Assuming A_a and Bacris give direction it could be turned into a web-enhancement, product-for-sale, or whatever they determine. It would take very little time in providing this to a fan base of ExP20 that wants it. Of course, I am not DSP staff, so I ultimately don't make those decisions. But as I have said before, A_a and Bacris are very open to listening to what the fanbase wants. If there is a genuine need and it is worth the time to put a product together, I genuinely believe that they will do it.
Then you'll get to see people trying to branch out and do things like include monster abilities as class features and so forth.
I've explored that, but monsters and the CR system is so ad hoc that it is tough. Not impossible, but the rules are so wide that they are only slightly helpful. But more conversation along this route is certainly possible.
Of course... if you're just a fan and not actually a representative of Dreamscarred Press... ummmm... well, I guess I just listed out a manifesto of sorts in case anyone decides to take their own stab at doing such a thing.
Thank you for your manifesto. Next Saturday, when Ireturn from my trip away from technology, I look forward to continuing this discussion. Thank you for your thougts, I hope my responses were honest and giving you the answers that you sought.
NLF
