Claw, Claw, Bite, Karate Chop?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I am unsure if this was an artifact from 3.0 that was changed, or if I surmised it from the Claws of the Beast psionic power from the 3.0 psionics handbook, or if it came from the Sage. I will try to research this further when I have more time.

Reposted as a not-so-subtle attempt to change the direction of the thread.

I've seen this come up multiple times, and not only in "Monk and Natural Weapon" threads.

Can anyone else find a source for an "Only one natural weapon mixed with manufactured weapons" ruling?

I didn't find anything in any of the FAQs, and I checked the last 3.0 and all intermediate versions of the 3.5 FAQs.

Anyone else have any better luck?

 

[Jack Daniel]

From what I understand, the flurry of blows restrictions apply only to the flurry of blows itself, i.e. to the primary attack routine. The penalty to hit (if the monk is below 9th level and suffers one) applies to all attacks made that round, including additional off-hand or natural attacks and any attacks of opportunity made between the monk's full attack action and his next turn, but it is only those primary flurry of blows attacks (as few as 2 or at most 5) that must be made with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

An example would be a 16th level centaur monk (BAB +16: +12 from monk levels and +4 from monstrous humanoid hit dice) who has the feats Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized-Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Multiattack.

Imagine the centaur carrying a longsword in one hand and a nunchaku in the other. This character could full attack with the longsword as primary, the nunchaku (or an unarmed strike) as off-hand, and secondary natural hoof attacks at +14/+9/+4/-1, +14/+9/+4, and +12/+12. Or he could use a nunchaku/unarmed flurry of blows as primary, the longsword as off-hand, and hoof attacks: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1, +14/+9/+4, and +12/+12.

From the v3.5 FAQ:

If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question).

^This bit from the FAQ is merely there to point out that if the nunchaku (rather than the longsword) in the above example were used as the off-hand attack, then it couldn't be used with the flurry too, because that would be just like making both the primary and off-hand attacks with the longsword. The off-hand attack is different (and separate) from the primary flurry routine. Because of this, an off-hand weapon used after a flurry clearly need not be a special monk weapon, so why not allow natural attacks after a flurry either?

 

[Jack Daniel]

More from the FAQ:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

I just found this, and I think is quite funny that the FAQ used essentially the same example as I did.

 

[Diirk]

From what I understand, the flurry of blows restrictions apply only to the flurry of blows itself, i.e. to the primary attack routine. The penalty to hit (if the monk is below 9th level and suffers one) applies to all attacks made that round, including additional off-hand or natural attacks and any attacks of opportunity made between the monk's full attack action and his next turn, but it is only those primary flurry of blows attacks (as few as 2 or at most 5) that must be made with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

An example would be a 16th level centaur monk (BAB +16: +12 from monk levels and +4 from monstrous humanoid hit dice) who has the feats Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized-Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Multiattack.

Imagine the centaur carrying a longsword in one hand and a nunchaku in the other. This character could full attack with the longsword as primary, the nunchaku (or an unarmed strike) as off-hand, and secondary natural hoof attacks at +14/+9/+4/-1, +14/+9/+4, and +12/+12. Or he could use a nunchaku/unarmed flurry of blows as primary, the longsword as off-hand, and hoof attacks: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1, +14/+9/+4, and +12/+12.



[/i]^This bit from the FAQ is merely there to point out that if the nunchaku (rather than the longsword) in the above example were used as the off-hand attack, then it couldn't be used with the flurry too, because that would be just like making both the primary and off-hand attacks with the longsword. The off-hand attack is different (and separate) from the primary flurry routine. Because of this, an off-hand weapon used after a flurry clearly need not be a special monk weapon, so why not allow natural attacks after a flurry either?

A few problems with your position:
1. You didn't give any TWF penalties to this character. With multiattack, his hooves are at -2. With the TWF stuff he's either at -2 or -4 I forget exactly how the oversized TWF works. So his hooves should be at the same (or even higher) bonus as the weapons.

2. You are defining a flurry of blows in such a way as is never stated in the RAW. From the flurry of blows description: "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."
So we could come up with a few definitions. We could say the 1(or more at higher levels) extra attack is the full extent of the flurry. This would result in us being able to use our longsword for any attack except for the extra one. This is a pretty unreasonable interpretation IMO. The other interpretation open to us is that as long as we have the -2 penalty, we're still considered to be flurrying. This would include AoOs made as well. This make the most sense to me. Note that even when the penalty is lessened and disappears, the duration is still expressed.
However I don't see anywhere in the flurry description that even remotely suggests that the flurry is defined us lasting for a full attack with only the primary hand. If you can find anything in the RAW that supports your above interpretation, it would be interesting to see it.

The -2 penalty on attacks is expressed as 'striking with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy'. In which case, why would you still be sacrificing accuracy if you had stopped flurrying the moment you started swinging your sword ?

 

[Diirk]

More from the FAQ:
(snip)
I just found this, and I think is quite funny that the FAQ used essentially the same example as I did.

Its been pointed out before that this FAQ answer directly contradicts the rules. Which happens alot in the FAQ. Heck, it even contradicts itself fairly often.

 

[Caeleddin]

Diirk - Please point out where in the RAW it is written you cannot have other attacks as well on top of your Flurry?

 

[Diirk]

You can have other attacks; but they're still part of the flurry.

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action.

So a lvl 1 monk with 10 str and TWF feat and a kama in the offhand can attack at -2, -2 TWF (unarmed, kama), or -2, -2 flurrying (unarmed, unarmed) or -4, -4, -4 (unarmed, unarmed, kama). No problem.

However the same monk with a light mace couldn't choose to flurry.

The reason for this is simple. Flurry of Blows lists a penalty with a duration. This means that until the duration has expired, the penalty (and thus the condition) is still in effect. If you flurry, you are flurrying until your next action, including any AoOs that you make. This precludes you from using any non-monk weapons for the duration.

For example you are hit by a cause fear spell and make you're saving throw, leaving you shaken. Until the shaken condition's duration expires, you are still under the effects of cause fear which means that a second casting won't effect you. Same thing. Until the -2 penalty duration expires, you are still under the effects of flurrying, which states you can't use non-monk weapons.

Another example of this sort of thing is double weapons. If you're using a double weapon, you can use it to TWF or for two hand fighting. If you use it for two weapon fighting, you are considered to be two weapon fighting until your next turn; you can't take an AoO and strike two handed with it. This one is spelled out a bit more explicitly tho.

Your turn, where's your rule support ?
(try to avoid using the FAQ for this one, its a bit suspect)

 

[Caeleddin]

Dude. I was talking about Unarmed attack with one hand and Unarmed with the off-hand. THEN natural attacks, which is listed under the SNA rules. Thus, under the rules you have posted, a level 16 centaur monk has 10 attacks a round without any enhancements.

The FAQ is not suspect. It is people dismissing it totally out of hand with insults that is.

 

[apesamongus]

The reason for this is simple. Flurry of Blows lists a penalty with a duration. This means that until the duration has expired, the penalty (and thus the condition) is still in effect.

You need to go study the logical rules of cause and effect. Nothing about a continuing effect implys a continuing cause. An instantaneous spell that stuns you for a round does not have a 1 round duration.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... and Unarmed with the off-hand.

There's no such thing, for a monk

-Hyp.