Cleave and AoOs

[jerichothebard]

This question came up recently on another forum, and I want to know what you think:

Hello all:

Question: I realize this maybe obvious, however a fellow I am playing with is quite "certain" about the following:

"The Cleave and Great Cleave Feats CAN BE USED in attacks of opportunity."

In other words he beleives that if you make an attack of opportunity and kill the opponent, you get to move on as if it is a Melee attack...the DM disagrees wholeheartedly and pointed to the language used in the Player's Handbook; however just as a backup I wanted to use all of you as a resource (if that is Ok with you!)

Anyway; thoughts?

Here is my initial reaction:

No, not a chance.


Here's why:

1) Attacks of Opportunity **must** be **provoked**. If a character gets an attack of opportunity on someone, it is because that someone must have let their guard down - either through careless/reckless movement or distraction. It does not mean that his friend next to him has also let *his* guard down! Note table 8.2 - page 141 in the 3.5 PHB. Nowhere on that list does

"Action: Standing next to someone who let their own guard down and got spanked for it. Attack of Opportunity: YES"

appear!

2) "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round." page 137, player's handbook v3.5, 2nd column, 8th paragraph.

3) same page, paragraph 10: "[Combat Reflexes] does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity". Even with combat reflexes and Cleave, you still could only make one attack of opportunity per opportunity - and the second attack from cleave would violate that rule.

Am I way off base here?

 

[Vaen]

Hello all:

Question: I realize this maybe obvious, however a fellow I am playing with is quite "certain" about the following:

"The Cleave and Great Cleave Feats CAN BE USED in attacks of opportunity."

In other words he beleives that if you make an attack of opportunity and kill the opponent, you get to move on as if it is a Melee attack...the DM disagrees wholeheartedly and pointed to the language used in the Player's Handbook; however just as a backup I wanted to use all of you as a resource (if that is Ok with you!)

Anyway; thoughts?

I haven't done a ton of looking into it, but IMC, we've allowed it, based on the wording of the (Great) Cleave feats:

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.

The feat allows you to perform "an immediate, extra melee attack" if you drop a critter. There are no limitations that I see saying that you can only do it at certain times (other than frequency per day).

I may be missing something somewhere else in the books. I'm sure that someone will step-up to the plate for a definitive clarification.

Vaed.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Yes, you can cleave anytime you drop an enemy in combat.. including attacks of opportunity.

 

[jgsugden]

By the rules, yes, you may cleave off an AoO.

Many DMs have house ruled that this is impossible.

In my game, I slip in the middle. If a character with cleave/great cleave drops a foe on an AoO, I allow them to make an extra AoO that round.

My reasoning: Combat is supposed to be more fluid than the rules. What we do is an approximation. If all characters were moving simultaneously, it is entirely possible that a character could cleave from one foe that has let his guard down to another foe that has let his gaurd down, even though their actions fall far apart in in the initiative order.

In the end, it is usually less of an issue than you think it will be. The only time it really matters is when the fighter type character is facing off against a clan of weak monsters. In those instances, even if the fighter takes a long time to kill them, the wizard can axe them fast anyway, so it is just a matter of who gets the kill.

 

[frankthedm]

In my game, I slip in the middle. If a character with cleave/great cleave drops a foe on an AoO, I allow them to make an extra AoO that round.

My reasoning: Combat is supposed to be more fluid than the rules. What we do is an approximation. If all characters were moving simultaneously, it is entirely possible that a character could cleave from one foe that has let his guard down to another foe that has let his gaurd down, even though their actions fall far apart in in the initiative order.

Very good call!

 

[Thanee]

Yep! That's a pretty nice idea to give a benefit to the fighter with Cleave still in that situation.

I also disallow Cleave and AoO to work together, as it's complete nonsense, that you can make an extra attack against someone who has not provoked an AoO, just because some idiot next to him does.

Bye
Thanee

 

[dcollins]

The rules definitely seem to allow a Cleave off an AOO. The FAQ has an entry that says this (3.0 FAQ p. 20):

If you have either or both of the feats <Cleave or Great Cleave>, you get an extra attack (or possibly extra attacks with Great Cleave) whenever you drop a foe, no matter what type of action you used to drop the foe.

 

[Thanee]

The latter however implies that you have to use an action to drop the foe!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Aaron L]

Great Cleave allows cleaving from AoO's, no question.

 

[Thanee]

Why Great Cleave? What's the difference to the regular Cleave there?

Bye
Thanee