Cleave and AoOs

[jerichothebard]

It isn’t about the opponent B. It about the skill of the character.

My argument has more to do with time frame then skill.

Cleave happens on my turn. Attacks of Opportunity happen on your turn. By that argument, the two cannot co-exist.

 

[RigaMortus]

My argument has more to do with time frame then skill.

Cleave happens on my turn. Attacks of Opportunity happen on your turn. By that argument, the two cannot co-exist.

Where does it say Cleave only happens on your turn? I thought it happens "whenever you drop an opponent"?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Your other agruement doesn’t seem to hold water. That was that say opponent A draws on AoO and you drop him and cleave to opponent B. Your point was what did opponent B do to leave himself open to another attack? The answer, nothing. Just like in the character’s normal attack in the same scenerio opponent B does nothing to leave himself more open. It isn’t something opponent B is doing. The character with cleave knows how to use the clutter of the battlefield to his advantage. The more opponents the better. He has chose to special in fighting large groups. It isn’t about the opponent B. It about the skill of the character. A person without cleave or any of the rest of the chain does not make the AoO with the same insight as someone with it. I think that the rules do and the designer’s would back this up.

A reasonable opinion. I look at the big picture and see things a bit differently.

D&D has a number of unusual mechanical conventions that purposefully reduce variability in combat to "unrealistic" levels. That is the primary purpose of how HPs scale, frex. 3.5 took this further than any previous edition by toning down instakill effects. The mechanics have been designed give combat a "more or less" predictable pace.

OTOH there are also a number of cinematic style maneuvers and abilities that a designed to spice things up and make combat tactically interesting instead of an overly predictable slog through opposing HP pools.

Broadly speaking sometimes these two goals conflict, usually they do not. When they conflict is when game designer and/or DM judgement is necessary.

IMHO, it is better to remove CoO from the game. My reasoning is that the small but real possibility of a sudden cascade of PC deaths outweighs the advantages of strict consistency to a cinematic option. It has absolutely nothing to do with a failure to understand of Cleave works. I am looking a the big picture and making a judgement call. YMMV.

 

[mikebr99]

My argument has more to do with time frame then skill.

Cleave happens on my turn. Attacks of Opportunity happen on your turn. By that argument, the two cannot co-exist.

Sorry, wrong... the AoO interrupts the current turn in which it was provoked... see SRD.


Mike

 

[Elvinis75]

My argument has more to do with time frame then skill.

Cleave happens on my turn. Attacks of Opportunity happen on your turn. By that argument, the two cannot co-exist.

I get what your saying, that because an attack happens when it is not your turn you lose some amount of skill with that attack. I don’t agree but assuming that I did, where do you draw the line? All combat feats are negated? Or just the ones that you chose? What is basis for chosing? Base Attack Bonus represents skill gained through character growth. Would you apply +0 BAB? This is don’t follow from the very way that they have you make an AoO. They have you take it at your highest BAB. This leads a DM to believe that this attack is made with all the skill that you have learned along the way. I was unaware that the fact that it is not your turn negates feats. So then would Imp. Trip be negated also? What about things like deep impact? Can you explain your position more? I really would like to know how you can up with this?

 

[mikebr99]

My reasoning is that the small but real possibility of a sudden cascade of PC deaths outweighs the advantages of strict consistency to a cinematic option. It has absolutely nothing to do with a failure to understand of Cleave works. I am looking a the big picture and making a judgement call. YMMV.

Well if the PCs in question are all going to be standing in melee... all at low HPs... and allow one of their number drink a potion, while threatened...

I say Let them die... they need the eye opener!


Nail'em up I say... Nail some sense into 'em!!

YMMV


Mike

 

[Nail]

You may Cleave or Great Cleave after you've dropped an opponent due to an AoO. These mechanics work fine together; there are no conflicts.

After reading through this thread, I'm still not sure how you could think otherwise.

Not only is there's neither a balance nor a frequency issue, both the feat and AoO text are clear.

What's the problem?

 

[Nail]

Well if the PCs in question are all going to be standing in melee... all at low HPs... and allow one of their number drink a potion, while threatened...

I say Let them die... they need the eye opener!


Nail'em up I say... Nail some sense into 'em!!

Amen.

 

[mikebr99]

Amen.

heh... thought that would get a response from you...


Mike

 

[Dreeble]

Our party was fighting some Azers and Fire Giants that were invading a town. One of the members of the party was facing an Azer, and right behind him was a Fire Giant. The Fire Giant swung at our ally, and missed him, because he had cover from the Azer. So the DM checked to see if he his the cover, and he did. So basically the Azer took some hefty damage from him Fire Giant comrad, and died. I asked (because I am mean), "Does the Fire Giant have Cleave by chance?" to which the DM replied, "Actually, he has Great Cleave." So the Fire Giant took his Great Cleave attack and ended up killing our party member. It is a great scene if you can picture it. The Fire Gaint, wading through his own allies, to kill one of ours. Sort of reminds me of the cave troll scene in LotR...

Heya:

Does Cleave require one to drop an opponent? If so, the Azer wasn't an opponent (of the fire giant), right? So, Cleave shouldn't've fired off?

This actually relates to that bucket of snails thing from way back. Snails aren't opponents. If they are, then my character declares air molecules to be opponents. Ooh, I dropped an air molecule, I'll take a cleave.

Take care,
Dreeble