Cleave on an AoO?

[Nazhkandrias]

Ah, I see. A spinning motion on the ground, accomanied with quick, jabbing thrusts? So when a foe is dropped, you use the momentum from the thrust to whirl around and thrust again?

But I can still beat down demons with a sausage, right? Say, how high of a level do you think you'd have to be to kill three Pit Fiends at full health in one hit and Cleave with a sausage?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So, your guard IS down if another opponent is being attacked, but only down by just enough to get hit with that massive blow. So yes, Cleave does indeed work with AoO's, both in rules and in practice.

The claim that someone guard is down is an arbitrary assertion which is outside the RAW at best, arguably in contradiction to the RAW at worst.

We have rules for:
--Surprise
--Flatfooted
--Attacks from unseen/invisible opponents during normal initiative
--Bluff skill

We do not have rules for:
--"You did not expect that because I say so."

For good reason. If you can arbitrarily assert that "that character did not expect that so he suffers a free attack" then you are only inviting chaos.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The claim that someone guard is down is an arbitrary assertion which is outside the RAW at best, arguably in contradiction to the RAW at worst.

Yeah - if his guard were down, he'd provoke an AoO, in addition to suffering an immediate free melee attack from the same weapon that dropped the other guy!

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

So, your guard IS down if another opponent is being attacked, but only down by just enough to get hit with that massive blow. So yes, Cleave does indeed work with AoO's, both in rules and in practice.

So, if your opponent dropped an invisible dire lemming that you can't see, the fact that he's apparently waving his weapon through empty air stuns you so much that you drop your guard?

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Well, both options are kind of arbitrary. There really isn't any way to determine if an opponent is expecting an attack or not, due to varying levels of intelligence, combat experience, and pure chance. My idea works as such -

If a monster sees a character CURRENTLY STRIKING another creature (other than itself), then it is not prepared to defend against the character, as it knows that the character is engaged in combat. A character can only handle one enemy per attack, so the creature isn't ready to put up a full defense against a powerful follow-through Cleave. They are wary, as they're in combat, but so are all creatures, whether or not they're provoking AoO's. It's like a sucker punch; no way to anticipate it. Imagine watching a fight. If you were in the fight, you'd have your guard up. But it's two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT people fighting, and you aren't expecting a punch. You're cautious, but you don't have your fists up. But then, one of them grabs a chair and swings. They hit their opponent in the head and it follows through, flies out of his hands, and hits you. I doubt many would see something THAT severe coming. Maybe a wild punch, but not a chair (or a sword cutting through a friend). In combat, a combatant is always ready to put up a good defense, but they aren't going to expect follow through on a particularly powerful swing against another opponent, so they can't block it to the best of their ability. Cleave is a chancy ability, a monster has no way of knowing EXACTLY when their friend will drop and a Cleave will ensue. As such, it can't be anticipated and fully blocked.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yeah - if his guard were down, he'd provoke an AoO, in addition to suffering an immediate free melee attack from the same weapon that dropped the other guy!

And from all the invisible lemmings congregating in his square, as well.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, both options are kind of arbitrary. There really isn't any way to determine if an opponent is expecting an attack or not, due to varying levels of intelligence, combat experience, and pure chance. My idea works as such -

Agreed.

We have consensus on what the rules say.

Whether or not the results of those rules are close enough to "good" is a matter of personal opinion.

If a monster sees a character CURRENTLY STRIKING another creature (other than itself), then it is not prepared to defend against the character, as it knows that the character is engaged in combat. A character can only handle one enemy per attack, so the creature isn't ready to put up a full defense against a powerful follow-through Cleave. They are wary, as they're in combat, but so are all creatures, whether or not they're provoking AoO's. It's like a sucker punch; no way to anticipate it. Imagine watching a fight. If you were in the fight, you'd have your guard up. But it's two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT people fighting, and you aren't expecting a punch. You're cautious, but you don't have your fists up. But then, one of them grabs a chair and swings. They hit their opponent in the head and it follows through, flies out of his hands, and hits you. I doubt many would see something THAT severe coming. Maybe a wild punch, but not a chair (or a sword cutting through a friend). In combat, a combatant is always ready to put up a good defense, but they aren't going to expect follow through on a particularly powerful swing against another opponent, so they can't block it to the best of their ability. Cleave is a chancy ability, a monster has no way of knowing EXACTLY when their friend will drop and a Cleave will ensue. As such, it can't be anticipated and fully blocked.

I am not suggesting that this Just So story is never reasonable. But if we are discussing reasonableness, then I would counter that there exist certain combatants for which all your guesses seem outright silly. Sure most combatants might be fooled. But what about a high level Fighter who has the Cleave feat? By definition, he can anticipate the flow of combat in ways that a Warrior 1 would find impossible to conceive of.

 

[Legildur]

Wow, I'm going to try cleaving through a couple of Pit Fiends with a Kielbasa Sausage now. Thanks for the advice!

Pit Fiends: Mortal, your time has come!
Pwntastic PC: Behold... THE HOLY MIGHT OF MEAT!!!
Pit Fiends: GAAAH!
*Meaty thwack, insane cleaving action noises*

Ahhh, the grand ol' art of Ecky Thump!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Let's consider two 4th-level fighters, A and C. For a start, assume C has Cleave. . . .

That's a fantastic sidebar, but that's all it is. You do not respond to Jhulae's or Mistwell's point at all. You're sole concern is about balance, as Mistwell points out in post #42. Reread Jhulae's post and respond only to her query about why a cleave of an AoO is fundamentally different than a cleave of a non-opportunity attack.

 

[FireLance]

That's a fantastic sidebar, but that's all it is. You do not respond to Jhulae's or Mistwell's point at all. You're sole concern is about balance, as Mistwell points out in post #42. Reread Jhulae's post and respond only to her query about why a cleave of an AoO is fundamentally different than a cleave of a non-opportunity attack.

Eh? It's not a balance issue, it's a flavor issue. Balance-wise, AOOs are fine, Cleave is fine, and Cleaving on an AOO is fine. Even the summon monster III-Combat Reflexes-Great Cleave combo probably isn't much more effective than any other tactic involving two feats and a third-level spell. As a side point, I think the game is more robust than some of us give it credit for, so the other option of not allowing Cleave on an AOO probably wouldn't unbalance the game, either. Naturally, YVMV.

The "flavor objection", boiled down to the barest essentials, is this: A Cleave off a normal attack feels like an extra normal attack, and a Cleave off an AOO feels like an extra AOO. Regardless of the fact that the feat simply calls it an extra attack that happens whenever you drop an opponent, this is what it seems like to me. When you have an extra normal attack, it seems fair to use it to attack anyone you threaten. However, when you have an extra AOO, it doesn't seem fair to use it to attack someone who hasn't provoked an AOO from you. Please note the use of subjective terms like "feel" and "seem". It's perfectly alright for you to have a different view.