Cleave on an AoO?

[Nail]

I think like most things in the rules, it doesn't bother anybody until someone makes a character that exploits it, and then it may or may not prove to be unbalancing.

Let's see a post of such a character!

 

[Thaumaturge]

One way I prevent abuses like "invisible lemmings" is I let players know the rules and their uses are like the laws of physics. If the players 'discover' invisible dire lemmings will allow them to get 20 extra attacks on a BBEG in a round, eventually the BBEGs of the world will make the same discovery; except instead of lemmings the BBEG will use the PCs loved ones.

I have yet to see this "abuse" in action.

On a side note, the "invisible silenced dire lemmings" scenario leaves out the reality that the lemmings' blood, once it leaves their poor wretched bodies will become visible. Therefore, the opponent will see that the guy with great cleave, etc. is killing something. Not that I believe the distraction argument is the best.

Thaumaturge.

 

[phindar]

Off the top of my head, I'd say a spiked chain wielding character with Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave would be the sort of guy to bring up the "Is this such a good idea" conversation.

 

[Nail]

Go for it.

Remember, the spiked chain weilder has to kill a mook to hit someone else. With that 2d4 weapon damage, that's less likely than with the classic mook-dropper, the Greatsword.

In addition, the mooks have to be dumb enough to continue to charge through the spiked-chain weilders area to provoke the AoO. That might happen toward the beginning of the combat (round 1), but then?

Again: Let's see a build!

 

[Nail]

To get the "spiked-chain weilding Cleave off of an AoO" guy, we need 5 feats minimum:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave (minimum +4 BAB)
Combat Reflexes.

...so a build like this has to wait until 4th level. At that point you've still got 1 HD mooks, and the PC could have lots of fun. But you've also got opponents with more hp....I'm not convinced that Great Cleave will come up too often in actual play.

Who's got actual play expereinec with this? I'm eager to hear about it.

 

[Nail]

Std Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) Half-orc Ftr 2/Bbn 2

Str 18 (+2 half-orc, +1 level)
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 10
Chr 6

Feats (4):
1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
1st Ftr: Power Attack
2nd Ftr: Cleave
3rd: Combat Reflexes

Atk: MW Spiked Chain +9 (2d4+6)

Atk w/ Rage: MW Spiked Chain +11 (2d4+9)

That's 3 possible AoOs, but only 1 cleave per round. At level 6 he could do 3 AoOs and 3 cleaves.

...all that sounds fun, but hardly game-breaking at levels 4 and 6. And because this build wants the AoOs, it's neglecting the powerful "trip monkey" build.

 

[brehobit]

"Lots of smart things"

Quoted for being wise and well-written

In other words, "What FireLance said"

I think a cleave off an AoO is fine RAW but a bad idea.

Mark

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

The problem isn't really with Cleave, it's with AoO. They give you an extra action, and at base that doesn't make a ton of sense. You might quite reasonably ask "why does one guy dropping his guard mean that another gets whacked?" But step back. Why does that guy dropping his guard mean that he gets whacked in the first place? Now, I like AoO, and I don't mind ZOC rules elsewhere. They serve an important purpose. But the implementation is less than perfectly realistic.

It makes sense for one combatant to lunge at another when his guard is down, but he's going to get one full attack every 6 seconds no matter. There's no mechanic for testing an opponent's guard, and the feinting mechanic is wildly different from AoO, if they're meant to model the same thing. Nor for waiting until they present an opening while presenting none of your own.

Now, none of that is a bad thing; nonrealistic combat has been a hallmark of D&D for 30 years. But it does mean that the lack of realism will occasionally be highlighted, as in this situation.

For my part, I'd argue in favor of following the RAW, because 1) IME, players love it when they get to Cleave. Let 'em have a little satisfaction now and then, and 2) it draws attention to the tactical aspects of combat, which I think are fun.

-C.

 

[phindar]

That's not a bad character Nail. I'd go for a higher dex if I was a Combat Reflex AoO monkey, but you go with the stats you roll, or the points you pay. (16 str 16 dex isn't a bad way to go either.)

Cleave on a AoO isn't a bad thing until the players decide to exploit it and have CR 1 summoned monsters parade back and forth behind the Great Cleaving fighter every round giving him three or four free attacks on his enemies. Then you have to come up with a reason why they can't that contradicts the RAW, or you can not play with goofballs (I personally would accept either answer.)

 

[Nail]

Then you have to come up with a reason why they can't that contradicts the RAW, or you can not play with goofballs (I personally would accept either answer.)

The SM I trick is neat....but at best it gets you one extra attack. So that means the Wiz casts a 1st level spell which gives the Ftr one extra attack (so long as the Ftr doesn't miss, and does kill the SM I).

Is that a bad thing? Maybe......