Cleaving after an AoO

Ridley's Cohort said:
First of all, since when is D&D supposed to be realistic?

Second of all, if realism is an important criterion to you, it is easy enough to set up examples where AoO + Cleave causes extremely bizarre and totally unbelieveable results. e.g. two targets, completely unaware of each other, standing standing 25' away from each other.

Thirdly, if you expand your list of what is an "attack", yes, allies might well attack each other. I am thinking shoves and grapples, not sword or club swings, but the point is still valid. BTW, American football used to allow such tactics about a hundred years ago but they were outlawed because they were both too effective and resulted in too many injuries. The fact that D&D is sword-centric and does not bother to model the subtleties of grappling is a (purposefully designed) failing of D&D.

Swords can actually be just as subtle as grappling. More so even (you have to control striking surface less than 1mm across from 5 ft away) :)

If you want to use the rule that D&D is not designed to be realist, that's fine. But if this is the case, why argue? If we don't base it on some model, then all this arguement is about is how to/not to tweak a mathematical equation.

As for the examples for breaking AoO+CLeave, ignore the math and use common sense/some model as a basis :)
 
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R-Hero said:
8 years U.S. Army, but every where I went, I couldn't get away from either ex or active duty Marines.

Each unit I was assigned to had at least 1 ex-Marine
One of earliest training assignments was at Little Creek Naval Amphibious base in Virginia. (Salors, Soliders and Marines.)
Several overseas assignments, including an extended stay at Gitmo, Cuba.

...and one of my favorite actors is R. Lee Ermy. :cool:


Yea...

I guess we are taking over the world... :)
 

So dropping summoned creatures for an AoO advantage is acceptable because there are no consequences?
Just as acceptable and as lacking in consequences as sending summoned creatures to their death because your character needs a distraction.

What type of player I want in a game I am running/playing in and what type I don't.
Yeah, I want to game with the ones clever enough to think this up and reasonable enough to accept a simple fix for it.
 

Ridley's Cohort said:
First of all, since when is D&D supposed to be realistic?

Second of all, if realism is an important criterion to you, it is easy enough to set up examples where AoO + Cleave causes extremely bizarre and totally unbelieveable results. e.g. two targets, completely unaware of each other, standing standing 25' away from each other.

I'm assuming you mean 5' away from each other, given how cleave functions.

You can also do the same thing with math equations, inserting 0's or pi or any other abstract figure. The supposed result still cannot be replicated in real life. And claiming that magic cannot be replicated in real time is not truely valid, since we can use tech to replicate many of the effects (a flamethrower, grenade, or fuel-air bomb for fireball, cellphones for sending, etc.)and several more are on the way. so, where does attacking a friend give extra attacks in real time, without repercussions, even in football over one hundred years prior?

Also remember, just because I'm unaware of my buddies actions, doesn't mean I'm anyless vulnerable. It's dependant on what the attacker with cleave perceives. If he sees an opening that takes both targets, he takes it.

If a blocker in football leaves an opening, the QB gets sacked after said blocker gets knocked out of the way. The QB doesn't need to know the opening is there. He gets hit regardless. I use this example because a QB may be focused on making a pass than where his defense is. His blockers may be effectively invisible to him for that split second, as he is unaware where the blocker is or what he is doing.

Again, if you don't want to base the game on some realist model then this debate is on whether can/cannot tweak the math in some fashion.

Gives me a headache just thinking about it!! :)
 
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The characters can be 30 feet away from each other and you can still AoO/Cleave.

...............A
X X X X X
X O O OX
X O F O X
X O O OX
B X X X X

A - first opponent
B - second opponent
F - fighter with a guisarme and the combat reflexes and cleave feats. F threatens all the spots marked with an X and the spot marked B.

A has initiative, and closes on F provoking an AoO. F's AoO drops A, Cleave kicks in and he smacks B. B is 30 feet away from A
 

As Abraxas astutely pointed out, yes, I meant 25' away. 30' if you put me on a horse.

BTW, the 30' away is not the best example. How about two people who have never met and are unaware of each other, both in different rooms, one around a corner and the other through a door being the targets? I face off against an ogre with a longspear and mysteriously there is an opening in my defenses because a goblin 35' away that I have not even seen attempts to flee.

I do not particularly have a problem those who just want to use the RAW. I do not agree that is the best way to play, but it is not really that big a deal either way for most game groups.

I just think that crying 'metagming' when I point out the consequences of the RAW is not very convincing. It only makes me wonder if you have thought through the logical consequences of the very rules you are defending.

Ultimately you are just making post hoc rationalizations. Your QB sack is a perfect example of muddying actions on initiative and AoOs as a desperate attempt to make a weak argument sound plausible.
 
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After reading through all the posts and as a player who actually likes to play fighters i must say why pick on the fughter. Cleave is normally only taken by a fighter due to most other classes having better feats to take. So why nurf the fighter by disallowing his feat to work. At higher levels this feats normaaly becomes usless so let us fighters have our fun at low levels before we nearly become a mobile shield and hit point sink.
 

Hypersmurf said:

Out of several hundred core spells, only one has this unique targeting capability, even though about a dozen other spells using the same word to depict enemies use a different meaning of the word.

DND Core - Enemies are unfriendlies

Bane Spell - Enemies are unfriendlies (by default)

All Other Core Enemy Spells - The definition of enemies changes and they become foes or opponents and their attitude towards you is irrelevant. The definition of enemies explicitly changes to one of someone you are fighting as opposed to someone who wishes you ill.

Why?

If the definition of enemies is unfriendlies, why would about a dozen spells EXPLICTLY change that definition in their description whereas only one spell still uses it (and then, only by default)?

Why wouldn't they only use the word foes or opponents in their text if that is what they really meant?

This is a HUGE dichotomy (even though we hadn't really noticed it previously).

It seems a lot more likely that the designers weren't even thinking seriously about this at all. The reason is probably due to the fact that two of the nine cases occur the majority of the time: AA and EE.

On top of that, the Bane spell does not EXPLICTLY keep that definition. The description does not go into a lot of detail, it is just three sentences (rather short for a DND spell) and the spell defaults to that definition of enemies (by literal reading), it does not explicitly reinforce that definition.

But a DM reading the Bane spell (without looking up the glossary term enemy in the PHB) could easily change that to foes in a game. It is only the "rules lawyer" DM who might allow Bane to target "the elf who appears to be a friend, but is really the guy who has been killing off the PCs family".


So, we have a one liner glossary definition in the PHB and about a dozen spells that explicitly do not use that definition. Also, that definition is only one out of two that people normally use for the word. It appears that the designers used the attitude game mechanic for enemies because it was convenient, not necessarily because they wanted to restrict the game in that manner.


The game itself has more examples where the definition of the word changes than examples where it does not, hence, a literal reading of that word shouldn't be used since the game designers themselves do not appear to be using it as a game mechanic for rules.


The attitude of most Americans before 9/11 was that they did NOT have ill will towards Al Qaida. But, that did not stop Al Qaida from deciding that all Americans were their enemies.

Both uses of the word are valid.

I pick my enemies (by my attitude towards them). My enemies pick themselves (by their attitude towards me).


If the designers want the game to be restricted to the literal meaning of the word, they should not have put in a dozen examples where it does NOT mean that. IMO. That makes the game confusing.

Player: "What do you mean enemies does not mean foes?"
DM: "It says it in the glossary."
Player: "Then how come enemies means foes in all of these other spells."
DM: "Never mind those, they are anomalies."
Player: "Huh?"
 

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