Storyteller01
First Post
FireLance said:
neh....
Have to disagree. Most likely, it had been a redirection of the attack. Maybe not a proper attack, per say, but it still requires effort to control and target properly.
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Cleaving after an AoO
- Thread starter Vlos
- Start date
neh....
Have to disagree. Most likely, it had been a redirection of the attack. Maybe not a proper attack, per say, but it still requires effort to control and target properly.
FireLance
Legend
Redirection works, too. If the weak ally had not been there, the attacker would still have swung his weapon at the defender, and it would have been dodged, parried, blocked or whatever. He doesn't get an additional attack roll in that round.Storyteller01 said:
The presence of the weak ally shouldn't change anything (in my view). The attacker drops the weak ally with minimal effort and still manages to swing his weapon at the defender, and it would still be dodged, parried, blocked or whatever. He still doesn't get an additional attack roll in that round.
One final nitpick about Cleave creating an AOO by causing one combatant to stumble against another or the death of one foe causing the other to drop his guard: Cleave even works even when you're fighting two Colossal mindless animated skeletons or iron golems. I suppose it's possible for an attacker to destroy one in such a way that it interferes with the other, but it would really require him to work that 13+ Strength!
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
FireLance said:
Unless he has Cleave.
It doesn't. It creates an immediate extra melee attack.
-Hyp.
hazardjsimpson
First Post
Cleave on AoO, etc -
In my group, we've debated a few times over the Cleave on AoO or not, and we feel that it's not appropriate. Even though by the definition in the SRD it *would* be allowed on an AoO, it's not really logical.
First off, the whole "Cleave" effect can be looked at lots of ways. It's easy to imagine anyone wielding any bladed type weapon cutting thru and then into an adjacent opponent, and it's also relatively easy to imagine a skilled warrior being able to make an attack, down the target, and then continue the momentum into another foe. Someone earlier posted about how you could do that with a mace, etc -- but they obviously haven't been smacked around in combat by someone proficient with their weapon, either.
We don't allow Cleave on an AoO because of the nature of the AoO, not just the nature of Cleave. An Attack of Opportunity is exactly that: an opportunity. By interpreting the AoO as a "swipe at someone as they pass" or a quick jab while an opponent is wide open, etc., then there's really no logical place for the Cleave. AoO is limited to 1 per round (unless you have Combat Reflexes) for a reason, and to me that precludes Cleaving on an AoO as well.
Now, on the player's turn, when they can concentrate on a foe or two and begin leaving swaths of dead goblins behind them, Cleave makes much better sense, and is killer fun. Arms, legs, and heads a flyin'...
On a related note, we've also cheesed Great Cleave a little bit as well, for anyone who's interested in GC but afraid to use it:
_____________
HAZARD'S HOUSE RULE GREAT CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 16, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: This feat works like Cleave, except you gain an additional number of attacks equal to your Strength score bonus. For example, if your fighter has a Strength of 16 (+3 bonus), you could conceiveably Great Cleave up to 3 times.
Normal: Cleave grants an additional melee attack when downing or killing a foe in combat.
Special: A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.
______________
Main changes are the STR requirement, and basing additional attacks off your STR bonus... The stronger you are, etc etc etc...
In my group, we've debated a few times over the Cleave on AoO or not, and we feel that it's not appropriate. Even though by the definition in the SRD it *would* be allowed on an AoO, it's not really logical.
First off, the whole "Cleave" effect can be looked at lots of ways. It's easy to imagine anyone wielding any bladed type weapon cutting thru and then into an adjacent opponent, and it's also relatively easy to imagine a skilled warrior being able to make an attack, down the target, and then continue the momentum into another foe. Someone earlier posted about how you could do that with a mace, etc -- but they obviously haven't been smacked around in combat by someone proficient with their weapon, either.
We don't allow Cleave on an AoO because of the nature of the AoO, not just the nature of Cleave. An Attack of Opportunity is exactly that: an opportunity. By interpreting the AoO as a "swipe at someone as they pass" or a quick jab while an opponent is wide open, etc., then there's really no logical place for the Cleave. AoO is limited to 1 per round (unless you have Combat Reflexes) for a reason, and to me that precludes Cleaving on an AoO as well.
Now, on the player's turn, when they can concentrate on a foe or two and begin leaving swaths of dead goblins behind them, Cleave makes much better sense, and is killer fun. Arms, legs, and heads a flyin'...
On a related note, we've also cheesed Great Cleave a little bit as well, for anyone who's interested in GC but afraid to use it:
_____________
HAZARD'S HOUSE RULE GREAT CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 16, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: This feat works like Cleave, except you gain an additional number of attacks equal to your Strength score bonus. For example, if your fighter has a Strength of 16 (+3 bonus), you could conceiveably Great Cleave up to 3 times.
Normal: Cleave grants an additional melee attack when downing or killing a foe in combat.
Special: A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.
______________
Main changes are the STR requirement, and basing additional attacks off your STR bonus... The stronger you are, etc etc etc...
hazardjsimpson
First Post
We could all imagine...
...monkeys shooting out of our butts as bludgeoning ranged weapons too, but there are places for discretion, and a little bit of logic, I think.
...monkeys shooting out of our butts as bludgeoning ranged weapons too, but there are places for discretion, and a little bit of logic, I think.
Storyteller01
First Post
hazardjsimpson said:
I dunno....
maces may not follow through a target, but they bounce rather well, especially on armored targets. Don't be;ieve me, watch any film where cops are using batons!
Redirect the rebound into another target. This fits with the 'following the flow of combat' theory. You actually exert more strength forcing a weapon onto a proscribed vector than letting the resulting rebound do the work for you. Just follow through after the hit.
You could also go with the 'controlling the fight' tact. Killing so and so left an opening in so and so's flank. Your mace just happened to be there at that time!
hazardjsimpson
First Post
Storyteller01 said:I dunno....
maces may not follow through a target, but they bounce rather well, especially on armored targets. Don't be;ieve me, watch any film where cops are using batons!
Redirect the rebound into another target. This fits with the 'following the flow of combat' theory. You actually exert more strength forcing a weapon onto a proscribed vector than letting the resulting rebound do the work for you. Just follow through after the hit.
You could also go with the 'controlling the fight' tact. Killing so and so left an opening in so and so's flank. Your mace just happened to be there at that time!
I agree completely, this is partially the point I was trying to make in my other post. Having used blunt fighting weapons, I know all too well how rebounding makes for a wonderful followup or additional attack, especially against adjacent foes.
Similar Threads
