Cleaving after an AoO

[Hypersmurf]

Now, suppose it is possible to Cleave off an AOO. Your ally provokes an AOO and your opponent drops him. He then attacks you, gaining a fourth attack against you in this 1-round period. Where does this extra attack come from? The loss of an ally in itself does not normally create any additional gaps in your defence.

So how do you explain Cleave working on a normal attack?

He gets a fourth attack in a 1-round period... without Cleave, he's limited to three attacks total, with Cleave he gains a fourth attack. The loss of an ally in itself does not normally create any additional gaps in your defence... where does this extra attack come from?

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

So how do you explain Cleave working on a normal attack?

He gets a fourth attack in a 1-round period... without Cleave, he's limited to three attacks total, with Cleave he gains a fourth attack. The loss of an ally in itself does not normally create any additional gaps in your defence... where does this extra attack come from?

-Hyp.

The extra attack is only from the attacker's perspective. From the defender's perspective, if the attacker had attacked only him, he would have got at most three attacks. If the attacker attacked three of the defender's allies on his turn and Cleaved off them onto the defender, the attacker still gets at most three attacks against the defender in that 1-round period. The defender's allies may have been irrelevant, but they do not create additional holes in the defender's defence for the attacker to exploit.

 

[FireLance]

His feat allows him an extra attack under specific circumstances. Just like a guy with rapid shot gets extra attacks under specific circumstances. It just so happens that rapid shot happens much more often and can be planned for directly where as cleave happens from the vagarity of the combat world. It is inherantly taking advantage of a situation that only someone specially trained can do.

Fair enough, but what is he taking advantage of? If dropping an ally does not create extra gaps in a defender's defence, then dropping the ally must somehow enhance the attacker's offensive capability, perhaps, as I mentioned above, by giving the attacker an adrenaline boost that translates into an additional attack. I'm not arguing whether it's legal, or balanced, or plausible, or logical. I'm just saying that I don't like the idea.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The extra attack is only from the attacker's perspective.

What difference does that make?

He could make three attacks; with Cleave he can make four.

The defender sees fighters like that chop down three of his minions each round all the time, but this one can chop down four! Where dfoes the extra attack come from?

However you explain Cleave, you can explain Cleave from an AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Vlos]

Ok, got an offical answer from WoTC

Yes, you can make a cleave attack after dropping somebody with an attack of opportunity as long as you haven't made a previous cleave attack that round. Have fun and good gaming!

Trevor
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

What difference does that make?

He could make three attacks; with Cleave he can make four.

The defender sees fighters like that chop down three of his minions each round all the time, but this one can chop down four! Where dfoes the extra attack come from?

However you explain Cleave, you can explain Cleave from an AoO.

A wild exageration. There are many, many plausible explanations for Cleave, some of which allow for the logical possibility of AoO + Cleave, some of which do not.

I would explain it as three attacks, one of which hits two targets. Not four.

 

[Storyteller01]

Now, suppose it is possible to Cleave off an AOO. Your ally provokes an AOO and your opponent drops him. He then attacks you, gaining a fourth attack against you in this 1-round period. Where does this extra attack come from? The loss of an ally in itself does not normally create any additional gaps in your defence.

I beg to differ on this comment.

Having an ally gives several advantages, one of which is have someone else cover a hole in your defense. This allows you to focus your own defense and attacks to other circumstances.

If your ally is taken down, and he was 'covering your back', a huge hole in your defense has just been opened.

The attack roll from the Cleave can signify how exposed you are to this new situation (being an attack at the opponents highest attack value). The attack roll can also be used to signify how quickly you adapt to the new situation.

NOTE: In IMC, defenders roll for defense, instead of just adding 10 to the relivant modifiers. This could be why my point of view diverges so greatly from yours. I have to explain to players what happened in combat, and why they achieved high or low scores on attack OR defense.


Now suppose this is not the case, that your ally is on the opposite side of said opponent. This would a case of 'guile and trickery will beat enthusiasm every time...).

You approach the opponents rear, seeing him taking an AoO on the ally on tyhe other side (say 10 feet away). Now IMHO, an attack from an AoO will look like most other attacks...

Anyway, he attacks your bud on one side as you approach his rear from the other. Lo ane behold, he knew you were there!! Not only did he get your friend, he got you to walk into the strike path as well...

 

[Storyteller01]

If you think the AoO/Cleave option is wicked...

Check out this feat from the OGL source book 'Blight Magic':

"Furious Blow (general)

Prereq: Cleave, Power Attack

Benenfits: In combat, if a character drops another foe to 0 or less hit points in one attack, they may apply any remaining damage to any adjacent foe within their reach.

For example, (character name) strikes a telling blow on a goblin that has only 4 hit points, doing 14 hit points of damage. When the goblin drops to 0 hit points, (character name) may then apply the remaining damage (in this case 10 hit points) to any adjacent foe within 5 feet of him (he is a Medium creature with a 5 foot reach).

The targeted foe receives a Reflex Save to avoid this damage all together (DC: 10 + base base attack bonus of attacker). If the save fails, the damage is applied automatically. If the save is successful, the intended target takes no damage."

Not only do I get a Cleave from dropping a foe, but I can nail another target with the first hit as well (the first target will easily stabilize, but hey...)

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would explain it as three attacks, one of which hits two targets. Not four.

And when he drops on opponent ten feet down the north corridor with his longspear, and uses Cleave to attack a second opponent ten feet down the east corridor?

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And when he drops on opponent ten feet down the north corridor with his longspear, and uses Cleave to attack a second opponent ten feet down the east corridor?

Some actions are more effective than others. As are some attack combinations.