Cleaving after an AoO

This is such an unbroken concept I dont understand why people dont understand ;)

Come on, in the examples just provided I am guessing you mean he could do any one of those things. They take a pile of feats and just the right conditions to happen.

First, someone has to do something dumb within range. Likely a 5' step would have negated this anyway. Anyone with tumble would ignore you. Anyone who can get some cover would also ignore it.

Second, the attack might miss. Sure, this actually does happen sometimes strangely enough.

Third, the attack has to do sufficient damage to take out the opponent. This happens less and less often at higher levels, people tend to get a lot of hp.

Fourth, the guy has to have cleave. This is not exactly a common occurance even for fighter builds. The feat is useful at low levels but drops off in usefulness rapidly.

Fifth, he has to have an aoo remaining. If people are being this dumb often then he probably wont. And combat reflexes is even less common.

Sixth, there has to be another guy within range to attack with his new attack. This can also be a problem. Strangely enough not everyone just stands around in small groups as that can bring dissaster from numerous sources. Also, there is always just something about sending all the mooks in and then the big bad coming all by himself, happens all the time in movies ;)

Seventh, the attack against the new target has to hit. Yet again, sometimes these things miss.

If instead one wishes to use some other combat option instead then that will take even more feats.

Effectively, all of this for an attack that might happen in very rare cases making a fairly lack luster feat just a little better sometimes.

Once again though, it is one guy taking advantage of the situation, not another guy being punished. While it is a situation that would not have happened if someone hadnt been dumb it is also something that most people would not be able to do anything about. It is only the guy with this specific feat who can even try anything at all. It is a bonus associated with this feat, a bonus that it gives directly.

As for now allowing combat feats outside of ones turn then I guess you also dissallow things like trip on an aoo. That is fine, it is your game, but I think it is a serious flaw in your reasoning.


While turns are very organized and such it is emulating something where everything is happening at roughly the same time. This means that things happening 'outside of your turn' merely mean 'outside of your sequence in initiative', they arent just standing there like idiots and drooling, they are constantly moving and shifting and doing whatever it is that they do. In this case it makes even more sense because the outside observer simply cannot tell whether it was one of your 'iterative' attacks or an 'aoo', they are both swings looking for openings. To instil even more artificialness into the system all in hopes of stopping an incredibly rare event from happening that isnt exactly incredibly powerful to begin with.. well.. that just seems wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
 

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Scion said:
This is such an unbroken concept I dont understand why people dont understand ;)

Come on, in the examples just provided I am guessing you mean he could do any one of those things. They take a pile of feats and just the right conditions to happen.

First, someone has to do something dumb within range. Likely a 5' step would have negated this anyway. Anyone with tumble would ignore you. Anyone who can get some cover would also ignore it.

Second, the attack might miss. Sure, this actually does happen sometimes strangely enough.

Third, the attack has to do sufficient damage to take out the opponent. This happens less and less often at higher levels, people tend to get a lot of hp.

Fourth, the guy has to have cleave. This is not exactly a common occurance even for fighter builds. The feat is useful at low levels but drops off in usefulness rapidly.

Fifth, he has to have an aoo remaining. If people are being this dumb often then he probably wont. And combat reflexes is even less common.

Sixth, there has to be another guy within range to attack with his new attack. This can also be a problem. Strangely enough not everyone just stands around in small groups as that can bring dissaster from numerous sources. Also, there is always just something about sending all the mooks in and then the big bad coming all by himself, happens all the time in movies ;)

Seventh, the attack against the new target has to hit. Yet again, sometimes these things miss.

If instead one wishes to use some other combat option instead then that will take even more feats.

Effectively, all of this for an attack that might happen in very rare cases making a fairly lack luster feat just a little better sometimes.

Once again though, it is one guy taking advantage of the situation, not another guy being punished. While it is a situation that would not have happened if someone hadnt been dumb it is also something that most people would not be able to do anything about. It is only the guy with this specific feat who can even try anything at all. It is a bonus associated with this feat, a bonus that it gives directly.

As for now allowing combat feats outside of ones turn then I guess you also dissallow things like trip on an aoo. That is fine, it is your game, but I think it is a serious flaw in your reasoning.


While turns are very organized and such it is emulating something where everything is happening at roughly the same time. This means that things happening 'outside of your turn' merely mean 'outside of your sequence in initiative', they arent just standing there like idiots and drooling, they are constantly moving and shifting and doing whatever it is that they do. In this case it makes even more sense because the outside observer simply cannot tell whether it was one of your 'iterative' attacks or an 'aoo', they are both swings looking for openings. To instil even more artificialness into the system all in hopes of stopping an incredibly rare event from happening that isnt exactly incredibly powerful to begin with.. well.. that just seems wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

Exactly!!! Besides, mass combat (heck, combat of any type. People just get lucky) is all about circumstance and opportunity (hence the saying "all strategies disintegrate after the first 30 seconds of conflict").
 

Scion said:
Come on, in the examples just provided I am guessing you mean he could do any one of those things. They take a pile of feats and just the right conditions to happen.

Except that it is extremely EASY to set up those conditions.

Scion said:
First, someone has to do something dumb within range. Likely a 5' step would have negated this anyway. Anyone with tumble would ignore you. Anyone who can get some cover would also ignore it.

Are you saying that AoOs are RARE in DND?

Not in our games.

It is not a matter of doing something dumb.

It is especially not a matter of someone doing something dumb in the Summon Monster tactic.

It is 100% there if the caster gets the spell off (which is what usually happens in the game).

Scion said:
Second, the attack might miss. Sure, this actually does happen sometimes strangely enough.

In the Summon Monster tactic, the mid to high level fighter only misses on a 1. 95%.

Next.

Scion said:
Third, the attack has to do sufficient damage to take out the opponent. This happens less and less often at higher levels, people tend to get a lot of hp.

In the Summon Monster tactic, the mid to high level fighter always takes out the 6 hit point Celestial Dog. 100%.

Next.

Scion said:
Fourth, the guy has to have cleave. This is not exactly a common occurance even for fighter builds. The feat is useful at low levels but drops off in usefulness rapidly.

The ENTIRE point of this thread. Additionally, at least 75% of the melee fighters in our campaigns took this feat without setting up the Summon Monster tactic. If you want to set up that tactic though, it is 100%.

Next.

Scion said:
Fifth, he has to have an aoo remaining. If people are being this dumb often then he probably wont. And combat reflexes is even less common.

Oh, first you CLAIMED that AoOs are rare. Now you are claiming that having your AoO opportunity left is rare.

Make up your mind.

If your Wizard and Fighter are setting up the Summon Monster tactic, Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave are taken by the Fighter to make the broken tactic even MORE uber. 100%.

Next.

Scion said:
Sixth, there has to be another guy within range to attack with his new attack. This can also be a problem. Strangely enough not everyone just stands around in small groups as that can bring dissaster from numerous sources. Also, there is always just something about sending all the mooks in and then the big bad coming all by himself, happens all the time in movies ;)

With the Summon Monster tactic, the Wizard casts the spell once the Fighter starts fighting the big bad guy. If they get separated, he does not send in the Celestial Dogs until after the Fighter is fighting the big bad guy again. Again, nearly 100%.

Next.

Scion said:
Seventh, the attack against the new target has to hit. Yet again, sometimes these things miss.

Let's take a generous 60% chance to miss the big bad guy. With 3 extra attacks, that would average 120% of a normal attack damage (not even counting criticals).

With a 50% miss chance, that jumps to 150% average damage.

Next.

Scion said:
If instead one wishes to use some other combat option instead then that will take even more feats.

However, the point of this is to set up this tactic which makes many other feat options seem very weak.

Plus, the Cleave feat is strong just on it's own without the tactic.

Next.

Scion said:
Effectively, all of this for an attack that might happen in very rare cases making a fairly lack luster feat just a little better sometimes.

I just illustrated that with a single third level spell, a Wizard or Sorcerer can practically guarantee that the Fighter hits the big bad opponent and he can do it multiple times in a combat and multiple times in a day.

95% * 120% damage on a 40% hit chance (higher with a higher hit chance) = 114% average damage and 300% max damage of a normal hit. Effectively a free swing that usually hits on average whenever the Wizard wants with a single low level spell (for a high level Wizard).

Setting up the tactic takes it from rare to common.

Plus, the Fighter can do this tactic ANY TIME an opponent falls from an AoO, not just when the Wizard sends in the mooks.

Scion said:
As for now allowing combat feats outside of ones turn then I guess you also dissallow things like trip on an aoo. That is fine, it is your game, but I think it is a serious flaw in your reasoning.

Bringing this up is a serious flaw in YOUR reasoning.

Nobody said this. I only said to disallow feats that allow for an additional attack.

If you start claiming that people are saying things that they did not say, then you start decreasing your own credibility.

Scion said:
To instil even more artificialness into the system all in hopes of stopping an incredibly rare event from happening that isnt exactly incredibly powerful to begin with.. well.. that just seems wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

It is not instilling artificialness into the game system, it is fixing a broken mechanic. Anyone who says that any given mechanic is REQUIRED is the one instilling artificialness into the game system.

No game mechanic is required and the fact that you cannot see that illustrates that you are more of a rules lawyer than a rules balance observer.

Any time a game mechanic can easily be abused within the normal rules, then it is broken. And, we are not talking about really watering down Cleave as a feat. You have just pointed out that without the tactic, dropping an opponent with AoO Cleave should be rare. If it is rare, then taking it away SHOULDN'T be a big deal. But for you, it still is. Hmmmm.

Make up your mind. Either AoO Cleave is rare and hence, it is no big deal to take it away. Or, AoO Cleave is common and it is more of a balance issue.

But as is, you are sounding like a rules lawyer, more worried about what is written in the book as opposed to what has the potential for extreme unbalance.
 

First off, let's not start calling each other names. Everyone has a different style and/or interpretation of how to play. It's human nature. Let's deal with it.

Second, if a wizard is deliberately sending summoned critters in so a fighter can get an AoO, the problem is with the wizard/player, not the mechanic (that whole meta-gaming issue in another thread).

Simple solution (from the role player in me, anyway): Demon/celestial, per the command of some higher power, arrives and asks the group, "so... what's this I hear about you using my friends/minions for target practice...".
The demon might be impressed, but that has it's own dangers ;)

Rememeber rule .5: Common sense prevails (no insult intended)


WotC cannot(and should not)attempt to account for every situation, plausible or not. We can't hold them accountable if someone trys to use a loophole. That's what DM's are for. :)
 
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KarinsDad said:
Actually, Spanish Staff fighting is performed PRECISELY like this.

So:

Whirlwind: 1
Cleave: 0

Iaido also has several techniques designed to take out opponents in 4 to 6 different directions while staying at the center. And they do it kneeling :).

realistically, you can't get more than 4 against 1 without getting in each others way, but thats a different thread...
 
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Oh yeah, it's evil to kill that bag of puppies :D.


But on a serious note, I'd allow it. If it works by the RAW and isn't completely ludicrous it's fine. Cleave definitely effects DM's more than the players anyways, and a simple way to imagine it without cinematic crazy battle scenes is: "Orc A moves up and attacks Character-with-cleave and misses. Orc B sets up a defense against a counter attack from the character (of course this is all imagined with the DND I hit you you hit me system. It works but it's already requires imagination.) Orc B walks up and for some reason (who knows with orcs anyways) drinks a potion. Character-with-cleave takes advantage of the orc drinking a potion and makes a large arc with his sword. The sword carries through the orcs torso (or the mace knocks him back...okay for piercing this doesn't quite work, but it's kind of hard to imagine piercing working with cleave ANYWAY) and carries through to hit Orc A. If you can imagine cleave normally I don't see how imagining it in an AoO is that hard.

And if the characters pull any bag of puppies stuff, be a good DM and just say "no."
 

At middlin levels its slightly easier to pull off the AoO cleave trick because of the massive damage rule. You don't have to do enough damage to kill the target, just 50 points and a failed save.

Second, if a wizard is deliberately sending summoned critters in so a fighter can get an AoO, the problem is with the wizard/player, not the mechanic (that whole meta-gaming issue in another thread).
Hmm. If the wizard (or sorcerer or druid or cleric) is summoning creatures they (the summoned critters) often aren't the smartest. They do try to immediately try to attack the summoners enemies and if he/she/it doesn't happen to be able to speak the summoned creatures language they could very well set themselves up for AoOs - with no input from the summoner at all.

Demon/celestial, per the command of some higher power, arrives and asks the group, "so... what's this I hear about you using my friends/minions for target practice...".
So, its OK to summon them for target practice by the BBEG but not some ally? Considering they don't really die and their primary purpose is to be cannon fodder, I don't see any higher ups caring much.

As for now allowing combat feats outside of ones turn then I guess you also dissallow things like trip on an aoo. That is fine, it is your game, but I think it is a serious flaw in your reasoning.
Different situation - the idiot provoking the AoO is being attacked, not the idiot next to him.
 

KarinsDad said:
Plus, the Fighter can do this tactic ANY TIME an opponent falls from an AoO, not just when the Wizard sends in the mooks.

One huge thing. You can only get 1 cleave attack in a round. Period. 1 or one string if have great cleave. You can't attack and kill then cleave/great cleave and then latter in the round get an AoO and get another cleave.
 

Abraxas said:
Hmm. If the wizard (or sorcerer or druid or cleric) is summoning creatures they (the summoned critters) often aren't the smartest. They do try to immediately try to attack the summoners enemies and if he/she/it doesn't happen to be able to speak the summoned creatures language they could very well set themselves up for AoOs - with no input from the summoner at all.


So, its OK to summon them for target practice by the BBEG but not some ally? Considering they don't really die and their primary purpose is to be cannon fodder, I don't see any higher ups caring much.

The first situation smacks of trying to explain away metagaming. The wizard (or other spellcaster) knows what to expect from the summoned critters, whether he can control them or not. That's why said wizard summoned them to begin with. The fact that the creatures 'just happened to attack' or 'aren't that smart' doesn't make the spellcaster any less responsible :)

For the second quote, that really depends on the DM and the higher ups involved. Also depends on why you're summoning them (defense, letting their demonic nature out for some fun, whatever...). You sommon good creatures to kill an evil creature (or vice versa), then take shots at them yourselves? Seem like a waste of resources (especially if they all attack. You get flanking bonuses, and the attacks don't stop if you miss) and just insulting (biting the hand that feeds you). Again, it's the RP in me.

It's the same as the old 2e arguement of summoning creatures 'so I can kill them for the exp'. All three examples boil down to the same arguement: What was the intent of the caster/player?

regardless, it's still a problem for the DM, not a reason for a new or more complicated mechanic.

Besides, as mentioned earlier (getting back to the cleave thing). Fights aren't fair, and the Cleave rule in conjunction with AoO's is not a tragic abuse. If someone's actions got you hurt or killed, well... welcome to life. Sh** happens. You've learned your lesson. Now fight smarter, not harder.

If you use ranged weapons, Cleave is no longer an issue. If you have a group of opponents, USE GROUP TACTICS! Get Spring Attack for hit and run maneuvers. Come in one at a time so no one is in range for a cleave if the fighter does succedd on an AoO. If you can't do that, then hit him 2 at a time, and let him waste his time chasing you. Let the opponents get AoO's on the character. Wizards, STAY OUT OF COMBAT RANGE!! If you want to slice and dice with the big boys, it's your own fault for getting clocked or killed.

If your players are using loopholes, patch them. WotC can't, unless you want a new edition with more complicated rules every year or so.

Again, common sense applies...
 
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Storyteller01 said:
Second, if a wizard is deliberately sending summoned critters in so a fighter can get an AoO, the problem is with the wizard/player, not the mechanic (that whole meta-gaming issue in another thread).

I could not agree less. If Cleave represents special skills for fighting multiple opponents simultaneous then setting up this situation is not metagaming. Quite the opposite.
 

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