Cleaving after an AoO

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Cinematic explanations of any rule are a waste of bandwidth.

Then cinematic objections to any rule - and "It's not fair!" is a cinematic objection, at heart - are equally a waste of bandwidth.

 

[Storyteller01]

There is a problem with asking for real experience - no one I know of has any experience with allies that can't really die.

Nope, but everyone here can think of a situation where a buddy can be taken out of the fight (crippled, maimed, etc.). An abstract way of looking at reaching 0 hp, but it is an abstract system

It's not how the allie is incapacitated so much as why? If it's okay to kill a summoned creature for an AoO, why not a fellow player? You can always resurrect them later (depending on the campaign, of course).

 

[KarinsDad]

Then cinematic objections to any rule - and "It's not fair!" is a cinematic objection, at heart - are equally a waste of bandwidth.

True, but balance explanations are not.

 

[Storyteller01]

Cinematic explanations of any rule are a waste of bandwidth.

So give a real time explaination, either for or against. Help solve the dilemma (if it can be)

 

[KarinsDad]

So give a real time explaination, either for or against. Help solve the dilemma (if it can be)

There is no solution to the dilemma.

Some people are pro AoO Cleave.

Some people are against.

I do quite firmly believe that if the rule was that AoO Cleave was not allowed, some of the people for it would be against it and nearly none of the people against it would change their minds (merely because some people like to follow the rules, regardless of what those rules are).

But, that does not resolve the issue.

For me, it is a balance and fairness issue.

For others, it is not.

We have basically beaten this horse about as much as we can.

 

[Storyteller01]

?

As for the attacking someone on your side to get an advantage - an analogous event happens all the time in games I have played in. The specific situation usually revolves around someone having immunity, or a high resistance, to a specific energy type grappling and pinning an opponent. The two are then blasted by the casters with that energy type knowing it won't do much if anything to our buddy, but the bad guy doesn't get his reflex save and gets hammered. Heck, my rogues have often let themselves be blasted while I keep opponents bottled up because I know I probably won't fail my reflex save and have evasion.

but you attacked knowing your ally has a good chance of living through the experience. When have any of your fellow players ever said "hit me, kill me (bring me down to 0 hp), and get that sucker with an AoO!"

It's a different situation when the target has little or no chance of surviving/remaning a viable combatant.

 

[Storyteller01]

You can come up with as many scenarios as you like to describe why the AoO/cleave should occur - I don't think they're very reasonable, given they would apply in so many other situations also.

But that is the basis of combat training, taking what you know and applying it to as many situiations as possible. Sucks being a one trick pony

Even so, give examples anyway. Everyone here is intelligent enough to decide what does or does not apply to the conversation.

 

[Abraxas]

But that is the basis of combat training, taking what you know and applying it to as many situiations as possible.

But are you going to give the character an advantage in those other situations because the scenarios you have created apply to situations other than AoO/cleave. If not, why?

but you attacked knowing your ally has a good chance of living through the experience. When have any of your fellow players ever said "hit me, kill me (bring me down to 0 hp), and get that sucker with an AoO!"

It's a different situation when the target has little or no chance of surviving/remaning a viable combatant.

Correct, it is different. However, In my rouge character's case there was a real chance of the character actually dying and suffering all the negative effects that entails. Summoned creatures on the other hand do, ultimately, survive.

If I knew for certain my character would come back with no detrimental effect in 24 hours, this tactic would probably be used in a pinch. But thats simply not the case with a PC. When PCs die they lose levels unless you have access to true ressurection.

Why would I do this when I have a spell that summons creatures perfectly happy to sacrifice themselves to do my bidding? I'd actually be interested in finding out how many of the people who think its so horrendous that your fighter buddy might off a summoned creature even worried about the fate of those creatures when thrown against the BBEG before getting into this discussion.

But that would be another thread.

No AoO/Cleave.

I'm outta here.

 

[Storyteller01]

But are you going to give the character an advantage in those other situations because the scenarios you have created apply to situations other than AoO/cleave. If not, why?

QUOTE]

Depends on the situation, and how it came about. Probably would, provided it's not too outlandish, given some of the stunts pulled in reality.

Also remember, given a rogues ref save/Evasion ability. Death is far from certain is that situation. Yes, there was a risk... but what were the odds of your death?

If you want to get picky (we all seem to), your players don't really die. They go (wait for it) to their deities respective planes! Those that don't have a deity still find their way to some outer plane. Heck, a creative spellcaster could try to use a summoning spell to summon a fallen comrad (hey, that rogue only had 5 HD. Can he come back with the fiendish template?).

This is a very rediculous idea, but my question still remains. If you won't attack living allies, why are summoned allies suddenly targets?

I don't know... The way I see it, the 'summon for aid' theory sounds like "let me summon you to this plane, so you may fight against the plans of {deity so and so}." "summoning for an AoO" seems more like 'Here, take an axe in the head so I can get another attack'. Seems odd to me. Especially since no one has mentioned a real, plausible account for hitting an ally with a melee weapon to get a new attack without stating 'it's different. summoned critters don't die".

What's the difference? If it can't be done within normal combat, why allow it for this set of spells?

 

[Abraxas]

First a question for everyone who thinks you should be able to cleave off an AoO, do you allow fighters to make AoOs against characters who fail their save vs the Hold Person Spell. Given that the AoO/Cleave is always described as "the guy who didn't provoke the AoO was taken off guard for the briefest instant when his buddy was dropped allowing an opening in his otherwise competent defenses", wouldn't suddenly becoming helpless provoke an AoO also?

Now back to the strangely skewed topic at hand.

The odds of my failing the save was 3 out of 20.
The odds of me dying if I failed that save, well what're the odds of rolling 47 points or more on 12d6. Heck average damage would've made me a one shot drop.

If you want to get picky (we all seem to), your players don't really die. They go (wait for it) to their deities respective planes! Those that don't have a deity still find their way to some outer plane. Heck, a creative spellcaster could try to use a summoning spell to summon a fallen comrad (hey, that rogue only had 5 HD. Can he come back with the fiendish template?)

Except summoned creatures go home, your PC friends leave home.
The summoned creatures are none the worse when they get home, your PC buddies lose a level if the come back home.
You don't have to agree that its all hunky dory but you do see the difference don't you?

In 1st edition you could summon NPCs, however since you can't summon specific creatures with the summoning spells now you'd have to research your own unique spell. At that point I'd say go for it - Assuming your dead PC had a celestial/fiendish template before he died or you institute a house rule that you gain said template after you died. The character isn't a PC anymore so no worries. Have at them.

What's the difference? If it can't be done within normal combat, why allow it for this set of spells?

It can. However,
1) The other PCs usually have too many hit points to drop and make the tactic viable.
2) Players are attached to their characters.
3) Unlike summoned creatures, offing the PC sets the PC back.

There is a difference between whacking your friends character and whacking a fiendish weasel summoned to fight and die any ways.

There isn't a difference between your buddy whacking the summoned creatures to take down the BBEG and the BBEG whacking them while they try to take him down.

Either you're worried about the summoned creatures dying or you're not. You can't have it both ways.

Your turn - Would you send a group of 3rd graders to attack a psychotic axe murderer so the police can get close without getting hurt? If not, how can your character summon a bunch of piddly 1 HD critters to attack a 9th level ogre barbarian?

Its a game, things work differently in a game.

C'ya