Cleaving after an AoO

Abraxas said:
First a question for everyone who thinks you should be able to cleave off an AoO, do you allow fighters to make AoOs against characters who fail their save vs the Hold Person Spell.

Generally, no, because the rules don't say that you provoke an AoO when you become helpless.

But then, I *do* think that "becoming helpless" should provoke an AoO.

So, if I had my druthers, I'd put that into the system. However, I've found that this doesn't happen enough to warrant house ruling.

So, do you? If not, why not?
 

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Ridley's Cohort said:
Agreed, Lasher. Getting bent out of shape when a PC is rude to a summoned creature seems a little over the top. Who cares about fairness to a summoned creature?

Who cares about fairness to summoned creatures? You see, that's the problem. Good characters tend to care about a lot of stuff including the infliction of unnecessary pain and suffering. If any good PC in my game were to regularly do this metagamey garbage of making main attacks against weak summoned critters in order to get an extra attack against the BBEG, they'd suffer an alignment shift even if the creatures are from the standard version of the spell. (It would also be a sure way to get me to Rule 0 the problem so that AoO + Cleave was out of bounds due to excessive abuse.)
Good has certain responsibilities. If you can't live up to them, then you aren't good.
 


Ridley's Cohort said:
That is worth a laugh!

Only for those who have not actually looked up the definition of "good" and "evil" as those terms are used in the core rules.

With a views regarding animal sacrifice that are clearly so wildly out of the mainstream for typical ancient/quasi-medieval/fantasy worlds, I'm left to wonder if, in your campaign world, the paladin organizations known as PETA and ALF hunt down those "depraved" Zeus worshippers and YHWH cultists who kill animals in their blashphemous religious rituals.

Except that we aren't talking about the morality of realistic Zeus worshippers and YHWH cultists, most of whom would not be classified as "good" using the D&D alignment system. We are talking about the D&D versions of morality as they apply to the alignments "good" and "evil". So, for example, we have this quote (from the SRD):

“Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.


Exactly what is altruistic about summoning creatures to kill them? What part of summoning creatures to kill them displays a "respect for life"? What part indicates a "concern for the dignity of sentient beings" (which most summoned creatures qualify as). How is summoning something so you can kill it for your personal convenience a "personal sacrifice"?

I would suggest you actually sit down and read the PHB section on summonings. With respect to the rules, a summoned creature and a normal, live & kicking critter are very different things.

Yes, insofar as most creatures summoned by typ[ical D&D PCs are celestial in nature, making the intentional killing of them (even if it is a temporary condition) an inherently evil act. Or they are fiendish, which makes summoning them in the first place an inherently evil act. You aren't helping your case here.

And read the section on alignments while you have your book in hand.

Yeah, I did. I think you need to brush up a bit there.
 

Abraxas said:
There is a difference between whacking your friends character and whacking a fiendish weasel summoned to fight and die any ways.

There isn't a difference between your buddy whacking the summoned creatures to take down the BBEG and the BBEG whacking them while they try to take him down.

Either you're worried about the summoned creatures dying or you're not. You can't have it both ways.

Actually you can, since moral codes make this sort of distinction all the time.

You see, just as there is a difference between sending a soldier into battle where he might die, and shooting him in the head yourself, there is a difference between sending a summoned creature into battle where it might die and hacking it apart yourself.

Seeing the difference between the two elements of each of these hypotheticals is essentially one of the defining distinctions between "good" and "evil".
 

Storm Raven,

Here is the important piece you seem to have missed from your readings of the PHB...

SRD said:
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.[emphasis added]
 

Abraxas said:
Your turn - Would you send a group of 3rd graders to attack a psychotic axe murderer so the police can get close without getting hurt? If not, how can your character summon a bunch of piddly 1 HD critters to attack a 9th level ogre barbarian?

Wouldn't summon 1 HD creatures, especially against said barbarian. Better uses for the spell slot ;)
 

Wouldn't summon 1 HD creatures, especially against said barbarian. Better uses for the spell slot

LOL

Glad you always have the optimal spell prepared and ready ;)


Off the top of my head, Movie/TV shows/Books where someone attacks ally to gain advantage.

Speed - Keanu's character shoots his partner in the leg to take him out of a hostage situation.

Angel - police chick spikes through Angel to get the vampire behind him.

Elric - Moonglum lets Elric kill him to rejuvenate/restore/power up Elric.

See ya, gonna let everyone else play with this deceased equine.
 

Ridley's Cohort said:
Here is the important piece you seem to have missed from your readings of the PHB...

A quote that doesn't impact the evil or non-evil nature of the situation. Summoning creatures simply to kill them yourself even temporarily is an assault on the dignity of sentient beings. Summoning creatures simply to kill them yourself even temporarily doesn't change the fact that you are willfully inflicting pain and suffering upon them for your personal convenience.

Further, summoning a celestial creature to intentionally kill it even temporarily is an evil act, since killing a celestial creature even temporarily is an attack upon a holy thing, and hence, an inherently evil act. Summoning a fiendish creature is an evil act in and of itself, whether or not you kill it yourself.

By focusing on the "its not really dead" element, you miss the important element: intentionally inflicting pain and suffering even temporarily for personal convenience is not a good act, and is, in fact, an evil act.
 

just my 2 bits

Cleave based on an AoO, sure
AoO provoked by friendly summoned creature, nope

But what if the magic user summons a creature and tells it to attack the fighter-type in question? I think the spell says something about summoned creatures automatically attacking your enemies, so they know who the "good guys" are, therefore they won't attack friendly PCs even if ordered to do so, therefore they cannot provoke an AoO from the fighter type. *whew*

On the other hand, some of these "morality" arguments could be applied to other situations (using summoned creatures to set off traps, grapple enemies while you shoot them with Area spells), so I'll put in another 2 bits for that. As quoted by Ridley's cohort, the summoned creatures are not "killed" by any action you take, they reform 24 hrs later on their home plane, none the worse for wear. Effectively, if you "kill" a summoned creature, all you are killing is a spell, which carries no moral stigma. Therefore I have no problem letting good clerics use summoned creatures in any way they desire(except attacking the party, see above). Specifically addressing storm raven's argument: If a good creature isn't allowed to cause the death of a summoned creature for their own convienience, then they wouldn't be allowed to summon a creature into any situation where said creature is likely to be killed, which is nearly all situations in which the spell will be used. (note, btw, that I'm not talking about the party directly attacking the summoned creature, but putting it in harm's way. The rest of my argument shows why a good party would have no need to directly attack an allied summoned creature)

As far as wether cleave-on-AoO should be allowed or not, there seem to be two arguments: cenematic and game balance.
Cenematic: " it just doesn't make sense for X situation to occur."
ok, this is a game, the activities portrayed therin take place in a fictional realm not necessarily subject to the same conditions as are present in our reality. We're talking magic here people and that applies no less to the "mundane" classes of fighters and rogues than it does to the spellcasters.

game balance: err. actually I haven't seen any game balance arguments, all I've see is people saying that it isn't "fair" that, in some situations an individual can become subject to an attack due to another individual provoking an AoO. I don't see how this is any less fair than someone triggering a trap which ends up hurting someone else, or someone making too much noise and giving away the presence or location of the party. If someone screws up and ends up hurting the rest of the party you need to chew them out for being stupid and/or plan around their inadequacies in the future. Oh, and I hold evil groups to the same reasoning which prevents "sack of puppies" attack as I do good groups. Namely allies don't provoke AoOs, therefore it never gets to the AoO/cleave point.

And just to be a hypocrite, here's some cenematic reasoning for cleave: You are relying on your allies to cover you and/or to take up some of the attention of your enemy. When one of them drops, there is a moment of opportunity while you are shifting your defense to adapt to the new tactical situation that an individual with cleave can take advantage of if they dropped the ally in question. Why just that person? because as the individual who delivered the blow, they are the first to realise that the target is going to drop, so they have an edge on everyone else. This also addresses the situation where the dropped individual is nowhere near the target of the cleave attack. The relationship between the two targets (AoO provoker and guy that gets cleaved to) is the individual performing the attack, now that the attacker has one less thing to worry about, they can make an unexpected move and catch anyone they threaten with a follow-up to the first attack. Lastly, this also illustrates why an attacker cannot perform an AoO on an ally in order to gain a cleave attack on an enemy. The ally does not threaten the attacker, so elliminating them does not change the combat situation in the favor of the attacker.

An important thing to remember here is that one attack does not necessarily correspond to one physical swing or thrust of a weapon. A single attack may correspond to a number of feints, shifts of weight, stance changes, parray attempts, psudo-magical combat techniques, etc... which culminates in a single potential hit. Therefore the AoO/cleave combo does not necessarily consist of a killing blow followed by a single strike at a different opponent (though I'll allow the player to describe it as such if they want to), it might be a subtle opening in a target's defenses which allows the combatant who is cleaving to make a series of actions which culminate in a potential hit.

Yea I'm long-winded, I know it.
 
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