Cleric powers' "ally can spend a healing surge"

[Yaezakura]

You're really making this more complicated than it has to be.

Unless you're doing something that specifies otherwise, spending a healing surge heals you. Some things, like recharging a magic item, preforming a ritual, and the like, may require you to spend healing surges because doing these actions drains you of life energy.

Remember, 4E is an exceptions based game. There are rules, and other rules tell you when it's okay to break the rule. The rule is, spending a healing surge heals you--things like a Cleric's Healing Word do not say you get to break that rule. Things like Bloodcut Armor allow you to break that rule, because they specifically say so.

There's also the simple fact of requirements. An ally spending a Minor action on their turn to have you spend a healing surge is not the same as spending your own Standard action to spend a healing surge to recharge the item. The requirements for recharging are quite clear:

Healing Surge: You begin with one use of the power per day, like a daily power. You can renew this item’s power by taking a standard action to funnel your vitality into the item, spending a healing surge in the process. Spending a healing surge in this way doesn’t restore hit points, and this standard action is separate from the action required to activate the item’s power.

Nowhere in that does it say someone else causing you to spend a healing surge can allow you to recharge those items, and thus, you cannot.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

That word "implies" is where I'm having trouble. I just want clarification. The name healing surge was VERY poorly conceived. Introducing keywords into an RPG is fraught with exactly this kind of danger.

So I'll call custserv on Monday and get clarification. This won't be the last time this comes up.

4e is exception based design.

Magic item recharging via healing surges is an exception to the normal uses of healing surges.

Although, I do dig your idea, I don't think the RAW back it up whatsoever. That being said, if a player tried that in a game I was running, I'd be cool with it.

Also, why was the name poorly conceived? A name is a name, and there are specific rules applied to each name. They could have called it bananas and the effect would be the same, provided the rules were the same.

edit: ninja'd!

 

[SableWyvern]

I can see where you're coming from Propagandroid, and I would say that a very strict, literal interpretation of the rules allows for the healing surge to be spent in any way that the target sees fit.

However, I also think that the spirit of the rules is fairly clear.

The flavour text:

You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target, helping to mend its wounds..

That makes it fairly clear that the intent of the power is to mend the target's wounds, not recharge it's magic items.

The Effect:

The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.

The use of the word additional implies that the healing surge provides an initial hit point increase, just as the standard use of a healing surge does.

I don't think it would break the game to use either the letter or the spirit of the rules. I do think that both are fairly clear, however.

 

[ZetaStriker]

The wording isn't implicit, but the recharge action is an exception to a rule that is present everywhere else in the book. Spending a healing surge refers to gaining health. I can absolutely guarantee that that is the rulebook's intention, which should matter more than any one player's attempt to skirt the system. The obvious solution would have been to word the recharge action better; the use of 'instead of regaining hp...' or something would have avoided this confusion. But it is very, very heavily implied that you cannot recharge the item at any time you could spend a surge.

Looking at it in a bit more depth, if you could do this, then what is the need to repeat the rule? You'd just do it when using your Second Wind, getting the defense bonus in the process. The fact that it needs its own separate entry implies a specific case in which the rule is bent, i.e., without that standard action you cannot spend a surge in that way.

 

[Vendark]

The obvious solution would have been to word the recharge action better; the use of 'instead of regaining hp...' or something would have avoided this confusion.

It does say that. Right after it says "You can renew the item's power by taking a standard action...spending a healing surge in the process," it says "Spending a healing surge in this way doesn't restore hit points."

It's very clear.

 

[SableWyvern]

Remember, 4E is an exceptions based game.

4e is exception based design.

While I agree with the conclusions being reached in this particular instance by the people mentioning this, I do think "exception based" is being bandied around a lot when it doesn't really clarifiy the issue.

The magic item recharge rule is an exception to the rule that tells us what healing surges are used for.

The cleric's Healing word is an exception to any rule that tells us when healing surges can be used.

Both exceptions could theoretically be in play at the same time, with out any sense of contradiction or confusion, even though I don't think that they are meant to be in this case.

 

[Yaezakura]

Both exceptions could theoretically be in play at the same time, with out any sense of contradiction or confusion, even though I don't think that they are meant to be in this case.

They could. If not for the fact that recharging an item requires a Standard Action. I don't think Healing Word lets you take a Standard Action. It lets you spend a healing surge.

Also, there's a bad assumption running around. You are not spending a healing surge, and thereby causing the item to be recharged. You are recharging the item, and thereby causing a healing surge to be spent.

Recharging the item is not a consequence of spending the healing surge; rather, spending the healing surge is a consequence of recharging the item.

 

[Propagandroid]

While I agree with the conclusions being reached in this particular instance by the people mentioning this, I do think "exception based" is being bandied around a lot when it doesn't really clarifiy the issue.

The magic item recharge rule is an exception to the rule that tells us what healing surges are used for.

The cleric's Healing word is an exception to any rule that tells us when healing surges can be used.

Both exceptions could theoretically be in play at the same time, with out any sense of contradiction or confusion, even though I don't think that they are meant to be in this case.

Thank you for both of your excellent, reasoned answers. I know I'm reading it literally, and the arguments that it is used to heal only are strongly implied, as you pointed out. I'm usually not this pedantic, but it's a completely new rules system, so I figured I'd try to get it right from the beginning.

The very nature of exception-based design, it seems to me, is that things must be spelled out quite literally in order to avoid interpretation as an exception. I was simply wondering if this was an intentional exception, or whether it was poor wording by the author of the book. I believe it's poor wording, but thought I'd ask to see if anyone had already clarified it.

@bjorn: It's poor wording because "healing" is a defined keyword, while "bananas" is not. There was no reason to attach a keyword to an ability that can be used to do non-healing things. That's why I contend that "healing surges" were poorly named.

 

[Propagandroid]

Also, there's a bad assumption running around. You are not spending a healing surge, and thereby causing the item to be recharged. You are recharging the item, and thereby causing a healing surge to be spent.

Recharging the item is not a consequence of spending the healing surge; rather, spending the healing surge is a consequence of recharging the item.

This is a weird chicken-egg type thing. For instance, what happens if I recharge the item but don't have a healing surge left for the day?

 

[Yaezakura]

This is a weird chicken-egg type thing. For instance, what happens if I recharge the item but don't have a healing surge left for the day?

Then you can't recharge the item. Spending a healing surge is a required part of the action. But the action you're taking is not spending a healing surge--it's recharging the item. Spending a healing surge is part of the action of recharging an item.

There is nothing open to interpretation there. The very fact that the recharge action requires spending a Standard Action to perform means it's impossible to do on any turn other than your own. Healing Word does not grant you a Standard Action, and thus you cannot use Healing Word to recharge an item.