Cleric: Social Outcast or Village Priest?

[Remathilis]

This is a facile answer. Unlike the real world, when people are favoured by a god in D&D, it makes them more powerful in the temporal world. Unlike reality, in D&D, there are objectively verifyable signs of someone being favoured by a god.

Powerful, yes. AND Influential. All the reason why the people would LOVE them, and a temporal church would either embrace them or fear their obviously superior faith power.

As for veryfiable? Only because the word "cleric" is on there sheet. In a world of wizards, demons, and shapechangers, how is magic a be-all-end-all answer to faith? The wandering prophet COULD be a cleric of my god, but it could ALSO be a demon tempting mortals into sin?

That is a totally inaccurate characterization of medieval society. What, exactly, did ignorance and superstition stop?

Real medival society? Advances in medicine, arts, science, equality by race/gender, literacy, trade/economic growth, etc. D&D is played in a very "21st century mindset" slapped across a "12th century world". Nothing wrong with that, it works because we ARE 21st cent people. What I was getting at was a setting not so enlightened as D&D presents itself.

But my original question still stands: how could the mainstream church still stand? In D&D, an army with the ability to heal itself and an army lacking that ability are not equally matched.

Again, It wouldn't be one church with an embargo on healing. Both armies would lack access to magical healing, cept MAYBE army A has a single cleric who acts as a chaplain. He'd get bogged down pretty quickly healing an entire army. The same with wizards; armed warfare looks more historical without artiliery mage on the battlefield. Maybe Army B has a court wizard with fireball, but not a devision of warmages ready to go.

How could the only major social institution with no magic come out on top when competing with all kinds of other groups that do have magic?

I think the whole setting has to dial-back magic for the idea to work. Institutions like churches, kingdoms, and armies would HAVE to be able to stand without much magical aid.

I think your idea of holy man as keeper of occult mysteries is a good archetype. What I disagree with is your idea that more mainstream religious entities would lack magic.

As the idea has evolved, I've realized it fits a lower-magic style setting than D&D normally gives. One with few true wizards or clerics and where magic in general is distrusted. Such a setting would be a fun, but require some tweaking to work. While the original idea was "hey, what if there WASN'T a spellcasting priest in every town", it evolved into an idea where clerics are both loved and feared for the gifts they have, making divine magic a double-edged sword and ironically, the closer to your god, the farther from your church.

(And yes, I just finished a book on the Knights Templar, if you can't read the sub-text)

 

[Wolfwood2]

At the same time, the cleric is such a powerful resource, he shouldn't be sitting around the temple dealing with mundane issues such as bookkeeping, paperwork, coordinating manning of temples, promotions and the like. He has godly "ummph" behind him. He should be out spreading the faith, fighting the fight, fighting the enemies of the church and the like.

I'm sure it's up for people to decide for themselves what they "should be" doing. An NPC cleric might well think as above, or they might decide that these supposedly "mundane issues" affect the lives and happiness of the people around them far more than beating up a few remote monsters. To go with Eberron again, the most powerful (politically speaking) member of the Council of Cardinals is Cardinal Krozen, who is explicitly listed as a 12th level cleric. (And Lawful Evil to boot.)

When the clerics are a rare resource, then the people running things will rarely be clerics. So, they will have their own power, because they'll have knowledge of where things are, how things are being run, etc. and that's a power in it's own right. Sure, a cleric can cast spells that communicate "directly" with the diety (in Eberron that's a subject of its own), but deities tend to speak in metaphors and riddles. They have to puzzle out the correct answer from the knowledge they are given.

When clerics are a rare resource, that people running things will rarely be clerics is self-evident. Because if they're rare, there probably aren't enough of them around (and interested in and properly tempered for leadership) to fill all leadership positions.

This doesn't mean they're naturally going to separate into the clerics who take orders and the non-casters who give orders as two distinct groups.

Also, it seems like we're talking about a very heirarchical church here. Consider the religion of the Sovereign Host in Eberron. Anyone can decide that they're going to be a Sovereign Host priest and minister to their neighbors. There are probably institutions where one can go to get specific training, but those institutions have no power to censor priests who attempt to preach the SH faith "without a license". A cleric of the Soveriegn Host will obey an Expert 4 is the Expert 4 convinces him it is a good idea to join the Expert's organization and choose to obey. Nothing about his religion requires him to do so, however.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I'd say Vol qualifies as well, even if most of her faithful don't know about her.

If so, that only proves my point about those with extraordinary talents rising to the top, doesn't it? That's three different Eberron religions so far, and not a 4th level Expert in sight yet.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Well, I doubt that he'd put it precisely that way.... But essentially, yes. "Thou shall have no other gods besides Me," you see. And Theurgy is a path to power that requires its practitoners to reject Shar in every respect. They can't even "pass" as a worshipper of Shar, as their own patron deity wouldn't stand for such disloyalty.

So Theurgists must, by their very nature, be outsiders....at least where the Church holds sway. The Solar Church is not an absolute power, and there are most certainly parts of the world where Theurgists are welcomed with open arms.

And the campaign will be set in an area where the Church is, while still quite influential, not nearly as strong as it is elsewhere. In this particular city, Theurgy -- along with the other forms of heretical magic -- is quite legal, and practiced more-or-less openly. The Church isn't happy about this, but there you go.

Ostensibly, sure -- that's the reason that the preachers would give. Particularly the raise dead type spells, which mock Shar's own death and resurrection (born each morning with the rising sun, dies evening as it sets). The reality, though?

It threatens the Church's power. Again, Thuergists *cannot* be integrated into the Church heirarchy, and cannot be controlled in any way by the Church. While wizards, and sorcerors can, and often do.

But I really don't want the Church to be a one-note villian, and I think that you're very right about this being a danger. Gonna need to change the presentation a bit...the Church does do a lot of good, and I need to let the players see that.

I think there's a big point where you said earlier that Shar's power allows him to work miracles far beyond even the most powerful cleric. What if it's highly to the benefit of humanity that Shar has that power? What if Shar is the only thing keeping fiends from the lower planes swarming into the world of Men and killing everyone? What if Shar is literally the only thing keeping the giant wolf from swallowing the sun and plunging the entire world into eternal darkness? What if, in short, Shar is not so much lounging around the celestial castle taking hits of 'mortal faith' from his bong? What if he's a very busy deity indeed?

That would also explain why he can't afford to support any clerics beyond the 'split attention' problem. Being that Shar is constantly using all of his power to keep the walls of reality together, he feels that it's a higher priority than granting spells to mortals.

At that point it's easy to see how Shar's instructions to his church are going to be along the liens of, "Need... more... faithful," and he's going to want to discourage faith going to Dead Gods. Sure he can do without a few people's faith. But each one he doesn't get is another leak in the dike. It's also easy to see how zealous and over-zealous priests could interpret that as a mandate to kill theurgists out of hand.

Besides, I personally think, "Shar needs your prayers to save the world!" is a pretty exciting pitch for a religion.

Druids are champions of Nature. They're not religious figures at all, and there is no druidic religion. Many druids are worshippers of Shar, and as such are likely to hold positions similar to those of wizards. It's marginally more common for the druids to be followers of the Animist faith, which is also condemned by the Solar Church, but the two religions rarely come into direct conflict these days.

I ask because druids have access to a lot of the same healing and beneficial spells as clerics. Druids can also purify food, create water, heal wounds, and remove disease. They can also Quench raging fires and cause farmland to be fertile and productive. They can even bring the dead back to life! (Albeit in different bodies.)

If clerical magic is frowned on for societal reasons, I'd envision lots and lots of sucking up to druids.

 

[Glyfair]

This doesn't mean they're naturally going to separate into the clerics who take orders and the non-casters who give orders as two distinct groups.

I agree they aren't necessarily going to separate. However, I do expect that the cleric group (at least the more powerful cleric group) won't gravitate towards the leadership, at least until they are ready to retire from the field.

Also, it seems like we're talking about a very heirarchical church here.

That's true. However, a church with a loose organization is going to have its own conflicts. Eventually there will be differences of opinion between groupings. Most will be minor and maybe cause some friction. Others could be major schisms.

 

[Cheiromancer]

While the original idea was "hey, what if there WASN'T a spellcasting priest in every town", it evolved into an idea where clerics are both loved and feared for the gifts they have, making divine magic a double-edged sword and ironically, the closer to your god, the farther from your church.

(And yes, I just finished a book on the Knights Templar, if you can't read the sub-text)

I think you'd have to work out a premise for why an experts-only Church would condemn clerics. Maybe because those clerics draw power from the demon lord Baphomet (to follow the Templar example). Then you have to arrange things so that this is a plausible position; add a minor shape change ability to demons in your campaign (or at least ones in service to Baphomet) so they can appear as angels of light. And/or have areas where "good" spellcasters hang out routinely become the centers of violent revolutions and horrific atrocities. "Detect evil" will be unreliable with respect to these casters, of course (since the spell is granted by evil powers, it will only show up some kinds of evil, not other kinds. And some good things might come out evil.).

Now tidy things up so that players can't tell if clerics do draw their power from subtle evil powers or not. It doesn't help a character that draws his power from Good if no one can tell that he isn't drawing his powers from evil.

Another possibility would be to say that all magic is subject to a Sepulchrave-style Injunction. The Injunction basically states a spellcaster is forbidden to be involved in wars and politics and such. If clerics were also bound by the injunction (and maybe by civil laws requiring them to be hermits or monks bound to their monasteries) then you could have a campaign where clerical magic is secretive and subversive, where there is not a cleric in every village.

The injunction would be enforced by other spellcasters, by specialized witch hunters, and/or by powerful extraplanar beings. (see Sepulchrave's Story Hour for more details).

You could mix and match possibilities. Some areas might regard all magic as due to the Evil One. Other areas (more enlightened) might have an Injunction. A Lich King might rule a remote area and be a cautionary tale of what happens when you allow magic users free rein. And so on.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Why not have all the NPC "priests" use the adept NPC class? Adepts don't get 4th level spells until 12th or 13th level. PCs who can cast 4th or higher level spells will be seen as special; not to mention the fact that Turn Undead can be pretty impressive. And since adepts never get 6th level or epic spells, the PCs will definitely draw attention to themselves.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Why not have all the NPC "priests" use the adept NPC class? Adepts don't get 4th level spells until 12th or 13th level. PCs who can cast 4th or higher level spells will be seen as special; not to mention the fact that Turn Undead can be pretty impressive. And since adepts never get 6th level or epic spells, the PCs will definitely draw attention to themselves.

The major problem with this idea is that you don't want to lock yourself out of the opportunity to use NPC cleric villains for the PCs to beat up on.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I think Griffith was really meaning use adepts for the rank and file priesthood. Adepts make up about 50% of all casters IMC, even when factoring in paladins, rangers, bards, sorcerors, warlocks, wizards, and clerics. Usually the phrase "fetch the healer" results in an adept arriving.