Clerics beyond healbots and warrior-priests

[Afrodyte]

There has been a lot of debate over the years about whether or not the cleric is overpowered. However, considerably less dialogue has focused on the roleplaying and mechanical potential of the cleric class. Domains aside, it seems that the cleric has few options aside from either the healbot or the warrior-priest. In and of themselves, this is fine, but with the lack of an archetype for more mystical, more scholarly, or more preachy divine caster, these ideas sort of put clerics in a bind. This limitation is not in itself bad, but when it comes to something as personal and diverse as faith and religion (which the cleric represents), this lack of variety seems awkward.

Of course, there is nothing preventing players from portraying a more mystical, scholarly, or evangelical cleric, but the mechanics don't really support them. At least, not in the way that the mechanics would support a con artist for the rogue class, an archer for the fighter class, or a diviner for the wizard class. What are some trade-offs or alterations that you think could work to help expand the cleric beyond the walking band-aid or holy butt-whupper?

I was considering working from the cloistered cleric as a base, perhaps adding some of the bard's inspirational abilities to the class (particularly for clerics who preach to the masses), and using some form of spontaneous casting for all the domains. However, I'm open to other methods too.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I once player a blast-mage type cleric in a single shot 11th level game. Worked pretty well. I used alot of searing light, flame strike and couple harm spells. I also had fire seeds as a domain spell. I took energy substitution (cold) to help mix up my flame strikes a bit.
Be a blaster type cleric can work well at higher levels but clerics lack the low level attack spells and some of the area effecting ability a wizard or sorcerer has.

For a more mystical or scholarly cleric just increase skill points and decrease BAB/HD I believe unearthed arcana actually has such an option.

 

[JimAde]

For your rabble-rousing priest idea, you might even just start with the Bard. Swap in cleric spells and change the class skills and proficiencies a bit. That way Charisma becomes his casting stat, he gets spontaneous casting and all the influence skills and abilities of the Bard. Take Perform(Oratory) for your perform skill and you're all set.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Dragon Magazine #311 has the following Cleric variants (some of which might be useful for these purposes):

Ancestral Speaker
Arcane Disciple
Aspirant
Crusader
Evangelist

The same issue also has some Druid variants, alternate Sorcerer bloodline rules, arcane spell templates, and some Bard-based PrC's. All in all, a pretty tidy package, IMO. This one, along with #s 310 and 312, is a fave.



Otherwise, I think the Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana does a fair job for 'scholarly'.

For 'mystical', a quick fix, easy kind of way would be to remove or weaken certain class features, and add those from other classes, such as Divine Grace, Divine Health, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Still Mind, Detect Spirits, Exorcise. . . or whatever.

''Evangelical'? Again, for the quick fix, certain Bardic abilities definitely leap out as candidates.


I'll try to think of (and post) more at a later point.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

www.wakinglands.com has a Priest base class, with more spellcasting and less combat ability.

 

[smootrk]

For your rabble-rousing priest idea, you might even just start with the Bard. Swap in cleric spells and change the class skills and proficiencies a bit. That way Charisma becomes his casting stat, he gets spontaneous casting and all the influence skills and abilities of the Bard. Take Perform(Oratory) for your perform skill and you're all set.

I think a Cleric/Priest class that starts with the Bard class as a template has very good merits, and is probably closer to a historical standard than the battling crusader that the original Cleric class was based after.

Clerics rise in power because of their leadership role with other followers of a deity. Real world priests tend to have a great number of communication and other social based skills. I still believe wisdom is a major consideration, and the spells should still be wisdom based (and divinely granted) but there is nothing wrong with the majority of skills being CHA based, and having some sort of Oratory ability like a Bard's that is CHA modified.

As I develope my thoughts while writing this, I feel that the Cleric has two aspects which he/she has to juggle constantly. The relationship with the deity, and the welfare and moral leadership of the followers. A Cleric should have both aspects in roughly equal amounts.

 

[JimAde]

I believe the Favored Soul uses both Wisdom and Charisma for casting. Once controls bonus spells and max spell level while the other affects the save DC. You could do the same with this to reflect the priest's two areas of focus.

 

[Afrodyte]

Given that reducing the cleric's combat effectiveness is a trade-off for expanding the possible archetypes within the class, how do you envision the mechanical write-up for the cleric?

 

[entr0py]

see my post

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150020

Spontaneous casting was the trick to break the one-dimensional priest build in my campaign.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Eh, as far as roleplaying goes, it's kind of difficult to compare our (proportionally) godless world with a world where saying the wrong thing can very literally get you smited. <Please, no flame war>

As far as the mechanical potential goes, a cleric can be a summoner as well (and more, but my brain is fried). But the class is designed to heal, thus the "any spell can be a healing spell".