Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[Green Knight]

So a guy who swings his sword wide enough to hit two bad guys or who smashes an opponent with his shield, pushing him back, is equivalent to a mutant superhero?

 

[AllisterH]

Er, this is the 4E statblock for the human 1st level GRUNT soldier that is on the back of the DDM card.

Human Guard Level 1 Solider
Medium natural Humanoid xp 100
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +5
HP 31 Bloodied 15
AC 16 Fortitude 14 Reflex 13 Will 12
Speed 5
m Halberd (standard at will) * Weapon
Reach 2: +8 vs AC 1d10+2 damage and the target is markes until the end of the human guards next turn.
M Powerful Strike (standard recharge 5,6) * Weapon
Requires halberd: reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d10+6 Damage and the target is knocked prone.
R Crossbow (standard at will) * Weapon
Range 15/30; +7 vs AC; 1d8+1 damage
Alignment Any Languages Common
Skills Streetwise +6
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 11 (+0)
Con 15 (+2) Int 10 (+0) Cha 12 (+1)
Equipment chainmail, halberd, crossbow with 20 bolts.


This is the one for the 2nd level human bandit
Human Bandit Level 2 Skirmisher
Medium natural Humanoid xp 125
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +1
HP 30 Bloodied 15
AC 16 Fortitude 12 Reflex 14 Will 12
Speed 6
m Mace (standard at will) * Weapon
+4 vs AC 1d8+1 damage and the human bandit shifts 1 square.
r Dagger (standard at will) * Weapon
Range 5/10; +6 vs AC; 1d6+1damage.
m Dazling Strike (standard encoutner) * Weapon
Requires mace; +4 vs AC; 1d8+1 damage, the target is dazed until the end of the human bandit's next turn, and the human bandit ***** 1 square.
Combat Advantage
The human bandit deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged attackes against any target it has combat advantage against.
Alignment Any Languages Common
Skills Stealth +9 Streetwise +7 Thievery +9
Str 12 (+2) Dex 17 (+4) Wis 11 (+1)
Con 13 (+2) Int 10 (+1) Cha 12 (+2)
Equipment leather armor, mace, 5 daggers

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the difference in power between a 1st level 4E fighter
and a 1st level human grunt soldier isn't any diffirent than the current split. The biggest advantage the 4E human fighter has is 1) ability to use his ace in the hole and b)he's got more options.

 

[Lacyon]

Building all NPCs according to PC guidlines in 4E is akin to making everyone a mutant. Sure it reaches the goal of everyone beig equal again, but by teh default setting the NPCs are not supposed to have all teh abilities PCs have. They are weaker and much less adaptable than PCs which are the superheroes of the setting.

Building all NPCs according to PC guidelines is akin to making everyone an adventurer who is good at his job. By the default setting, the vast majority of NPCs in every edition of D&D ever were not supposed to have all the abilities PCs have. See also NPC classes in 3E and 0-level characters in previous editions.

NPCs use PC-grade statistics when it's appropriate in 4E just like in every edition of D&D ever.

 

[hong]

Building all NPCs according to PC guidlines in 4E is akin to making everyone a mutant.

Silly Derren! If everyone is a mutant, then noone is a mutant.

 

[Crosswind]

With all due respect, Gnome, I think even you might admit that DMs who enjoy spending 3 hours out-of-game to resolve a war are in the minority, yes?

I admire your valiant stand (and appreciate Lizard's insightful contributions), but:

4E stats out NPCs with the things they are likely to use. Be it spells, skills, stats. This makes it a -lot- easier for a -lot- of DMs to prepare for sessions. I think we can all agree that making it easier for DMs to prepare for sessions is a good thing, yes?

There are some DMs who want more detail in their NPCs - you and Lizard, for instance. I can't tell if you want this extra detail for all NPCs, or just important ones, but...there is nothing really preventing you from making your NPCs as detailed as you like. Take the entries in the Monster Manual, and add the relevant skills. Make your Pit Fiend also a master ballerina. Give him rogue sneak attack, if you like.

I don't -think- this is any harder than adding rogue levels to him. The only uncertainty involved is how it changes his CR. But let's be serious - you can absolutely make builds in 3.5 that have the same CR, but are universally better. Adding certain templates to monsters makes them way more powerful than the CR change would indicate, etcetera. So it does not seem that 4th edition hinders you in any way, here. If anything, it gives you the freedom to make your NPCs however you like.

Lizard, you are certainly not alone in liking to have deep, involved worlds. The campaign that I currently play in is detailed and pretty excellent. But I don't really see how 3.X supports this better than 4th edition - other than the "Shallow Rules = Shallow Setting", which I find to be entirely untrue.

If anything, ease of creating and manipulating NPCs should make it easier for DMs to focus on their world.

Finally (and this post is poorly structured, for which I apologize) - there is no ability that PCs have that NPCs cannot also possess. The setting I play in is low-powered, and low-level PCs are not heroes. They are normal people, on par with NPCs, who might become heroes. 4E isn't going to change this in our setting in any way - I don't see why it would have to.

Summary:
3.X hindered our style of gameplay, by forcing our GM to follow intricate, involved rules to create the diverse array of NPCs he wanted us to meet/interact with in the world. It enabled Lizard to create, authoritatively, the diverse array of NPCs he wanted his PCs to interact with.
4.X will give our DM blueprints and easy ways to customize them. It also won't stop Lizard from creating diverse arrays of NPCs, but it might make it harder for him.

So I understand your objection, but I feel that you're a minority among gamers - also, that the 3.X approach was a barrier to entry for aspiring DMs.

-Cross

 

[Derren]

So a guy who swings his sword wide enough to hit two bad guys or who smashes an opponent with his shield, pushing him back, is equivalent to a mutant superhero?

Yes because most other humans, no matter how strong and experienced can't do that.
And don't forget that this person can not only swing his weapon very strong, he can also heal himself at will, heal all wounds by sleeping for six hours, becomes better and better in any trade in profession even without practice and has a destiny so he can come back from the death most of the time.

 

[hong]

Yes because most other humans, no matter how strong and experienced can't do that.

This is, of course, true of every D&D revision ever. Unless you mean in some platonic, never-to-be-realised ideal, that is.

 

[Green Knight]

Yes because most other humans, no matter how strong and experienced can't do that.

Most other humans can't swing swords and shield bash? Speaking in specifics, do you have any reason to believe that NPC's can't be given Cleave or Tide of Iron or an equivalent? Because as has been pointed out, you can create an NPC who's a Solo challenge for a 5-man party without giving him class levels. So clearly NPC's can be pretty tough when necessary, and may have some PC abilities, without the restrictions of class or level.

And don't forget that this person can not only swing his weapon very strong, he can also heal himself at will

As Chris Sims pointed out, NPC's get Healing Surges, too.

heal all wounds by sleeping for six hours

Is there a need to keep track of longterm healing for NPC's?

becomes better and better in any trade in profession even without practice

So? NPC's can apparently achieve ranks in skills that far outstrip a PC, who's constrained by his class level.

and has a destiny so he can come back from the death most of the time

That's up to the DM. If he decides the NPC should come back to life, then the NPC can come back to life.

 

[Green Knight]

This is, of course, true of every D&D revision ever. Unless you mean in some platonic, never-to-be-realised ideal, that is.

Yeah. Apparently, it's only in 4E where PC's become mutant superhumans. Despite the apparent ability to build your NPC's any way you like in 4E. They weren't that way in 3E, when NPC's had, at most, a handful of levels in NPC classes which were mediocre in comparison to PC class levels. And they certainly weren't that way in 2E, where all NPC's either had PC class levels or were Level 0 characters.

 

[Derren]

Yeah. Apparently, it's only in 4E where PC's become mutant superhumans. Despite the apparent ability to build your NPC's any way you like in 4E. They weren't that way in 3E, when NPC's had, at most, a handful of levels in NPC classes which were mediocre in comparison to PC class levels. And they certainly weren't that way in 2E, where all NPC's either had PC class levels or were Level 0 characters.

Nice try but in 3E many NPCs had PC classes (look at published adventures or the city gerenation guidelines).
In 3E PCs where just very highly trained, but NPCs regulary got the same kind of training. In 4E PCs are special and most NPCs are just pale shadows compared to PCs even when they have the same level.
Only when you deviate from the default way of how D&D works the NPCs can achieve the same things as PCs.